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  • Injector oil seals

    I have just learnt there is an issue with the injector oil seals in the 150 Diesel 1KD-FTV engine in Europe to the point there is a recall in Europe and that in New Zealand there is a complete change of seals every 45K
    Evidently they leak to a point where blow by gasses enter the engine oil stream which in turn turns the oil to carbon blocking up the oil pickup in the sump starving the engine of oil with consequences well you can guess .I'm not sure if anyone here has had that trouble yet but it certainly seems to be an issue elsewhere .I'm not sure if the carbonizing they recommend works so I'm not sure what the answer is .Can someone make a suggestion about preventing this ?? Cheers Foxy49

  • #2
    Geez. There have certainly been some issues. Im wondering whether this is going to be a truck that I keep for 5 or 6 years. Probably worth getting rid of before the warranty runs out. Im certainly nervous about the cold injector rattle and now this.
    sigpic2" King Springs, Ironman Foam Cell Shocks. 17x9 Dick Cepek wheels with 275/70/17 Maxxis Bighorn 762S. Ironman Deluxe Bullbar. Lightforce 240 XGT Lights. GME TX3100 UHF. Scanguage II. Drifta Drawers. Wetseat Covers. Toyota. Dual Battery System. MSA Seat Organiser and Table. MSA Wheel Bin. Staun Deflators. Toyota Tow Bar. Ironman Underbody Protection Plates. Waeco CF50. Performance Chip. TJM Airtec Snorkel. Sandgrabba Mats.

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    • #3
      I predict that the injector seal issue, once rectified in everyones vehicles will go a long way to sorting out injector issues.
      From my personal experience, once I replaced the copper seals with the new aluminium seals, the problem was sorted. I also had to replace one injector, which was #1, which was the injector that was concreted into the injector bore with carbon buidup from the leaking seal.
      IMO the TMC and Denso engineers cocked up the design. The seating surface on the injector tip is only about a 1.5mm flat. The seals sandwhich between this tiny falt surface, and the surface of the head. Just not enough bearing surface to hold back the high pressure associated with combustion.
      I used to be scared of the reliability of my prado like you. Now that I have fixed mine, and worked on a few others, I am not fussed at ll. It isn't a great problem, and I now class this as a roadside fixable issue if needs dictate.

      A mechanic will charge between $650.00 and $800.00 to replace the seals. The variation in price is due to the cost of cleaning up the carbon concrete and removing stuck injector/s if neccessary. Add to this the coast of any new injectors that need replacing.
      2008 Diesel Prado with extra stuff added. I drive it on the road and other places too.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Davros View Post
        I predict that the injector seal issue, once rectified in everyones vehicles will go a long way to sorting out injector issues.
        From my personal experience, once I replaced the copper seals with the new aluminium seals, the problem was sorted. I also had to replace one injector, which was #1, which was the injector that was concreted into the injector bore with carbon buidup from the leaking seal.
        IMO the TMC and Denso engineers cocked up the design. The seating surface on the injector tip is only about a 1.5mm flat. The seals sandwhich between this tiny falt surface, and the surface of the head. Just not enough bearing surface to hold back the high pressure associated with combustion.
        I used to be scared of the reliability of my prado like you. Now that I have fixed mine, and worked on a few others, I am not fussed at ll. It isn't a great problem, and I now class this as a roadside fixable issue if needs dictate.

        A mechanic will charge between $650.00 and $800.00 to replace the seals. The variation in price is due to the cost of cleaning up the carbon concrete and removing stuck injector/s if neccessary. Add to this the coast of any new injectors that need replacing.
        Do newer vehicles already have aluminum seals? Any way to check?
        2011 150series GXL

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        • #5
          I don't know, and the question has been posed before by others.
          I laboured on the point of the Hilux, because it was August 2010 build.
          Still had copper seals.
          The only way to check and be sure is to pull out an injector. This can be done by anyone that has good competence around mechanical work, but special attention to torque values must be adhered to. Cleanliness around the fuel lines and rail side of the injector is an imperative as well. Use of a new return line gasket would have to be factored in as well, and a new o-ring and aluminium seal for the injector that is removed for inspection. These items should not be re-used, and are only a few dollars to buy from TMC. #1 injector is the most common culprit, so if I was doing the job, that is the one I would be removing for a look.
          2008 Diesel Prado with extra stuff added. I drive it on the road and other places too.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Davros View Post
            I don't know, and the question has been posed before by others.
            I laboured on the point of the Hilux, because it was August 2010 build.
            Still had copper seals.
            The only way to check and be sure is to pull out an injector. This can be done by anyone that has good competence around mechanical work, but special attention to torque values must be adhered to. Cleanliness around the fuel lines and rail side of the injector is an imperative as well. Use of a new return line gasket would have to be factored in as well, and a new o-ring and aluminium seal for the injector that is removed for inspection. These items should not be re-used, and are only a few dollars to buy from TMC. #1 injector is the most common culprit, so if I was doing the job, that is the one I would be removing for a look.
            So parts are the cheap parts in all of this?

            I assume all the torque values are in workshop manual.
            2011 150series GXL

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by wooley View Post
              So parts are the cheap parts in all of this?

              I assume all the torque values are in workshop manual.
              Parts are very cheap. I was surprised how cheap actually.
              Torque values may be in workshop manual. I did all of the work in my freinds workshop, where I work a few days a month. He has all of the info in Toyota "Bibles" that he has. These are not workshop manuals but specification books.
              2008 Diesel Prado with extra stuff added. I drive it on the road and other places too.

              Comment


              • #8
                The service notice only mentions up to 2007 or 2008 from memory so that would suggest even the Al seals have a life given later model 120s and 150s seem to also have problems. I don't think ToyoDIY gives part numbers for the seals???????

                EDIT had a bit of a look at ToyoDIY and went searching for Hiluxes and 120 and 150 Prados.

                Part numbers are there and the only difference is that the injector seal for the Hilux gives two part numbers. One part supplied out of Japan and the other locally procured. Prados all have the same part number including early ones. That is a little odd because a change of material should mean a new part number and a change of material did happen.
                mjrandom
                Out of control poster!
                Last edited by mjrandom; 13-05-2012, 08:44 PM.
                My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic

                Comment


                • #9
                  I read this information in the local Advertiser in SA in the used car section ,He was talking mainly about the Hilux but the Prado has the exact same motor ie 150's. He certainly suggests the idea of doing an extra in between service IE, oil and filter every 5K which I do anyway but it seems now that's no guarantee either. He also suggests that we should get the dealers to check the seals at every service. He suggests that the oil pickup in the sump can be accessed via the sump plug with a probe to see if there is a carbon build up in the pickup.I certainly will be asking my service guys to look .I have the 40K service due soon so it will be interesting .Man you buy a name vehicle and you get endless stuff ups makes you wonder why bother ? Cheers Foxy

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mjrandom View Post
                    The service notice only mentions up to 2007 or 2008 from memory so that would suggest even the Al seals have a life given later model 120s and 150s seem to also have problems. I don't think ToyoDIY gives part numbers for the seals???????

                    EDIT had a bit of a look at ToyoDIY and went searching for Hiluxes and 120 and 150 Prados.

                    Part numbers are there and the only difference is that the injector seal for the Hilux gives two part numbers. One part supplied out of Japan and the other locally procured. Prados all have the same part number including early ones. That is a little odd because a change of material should mean a new part number and a change of material did happen.
                    Hi Guys As far as part numbers go, following pic should help, Also picks of carbon build up that destroyed a regularly serviced engine.
                    IF YOU DO YOUR INJECTOR SEALS-CHECK THE OIL PICKUP SCREEN FOR BLOCKAGES BEFORE IT GOES TERMINAL
                    Landuser

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Hilux D4D Injector Seal Comparison Superseded vs New Plated.jpg
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Name:	D4D-2 Injectors out 1x Major Combustion leak revealed.jpg
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Name:	D4D-3 Injector Combustion leak significant carbon desposits.jpg
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Name:	D4D-6 Oil Pickup Screen on verge of total blockage and Oil starvation.jpg
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Name:	D4D-8 Sump removed- Significant Carbon deposit as a Heavy granulated loose sediment.jpg
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                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Given all the "hype" off Toyota that "you should" change all injector fuel lines and cam-cover seals etc once removed due to the high line pressures and possibility's of fracture....

                      Was Toyota changing "All" 4 x injector lines when changing "One" faulty fuel injector as "All" 4 x pipes and cam-cover have to be removed to get one injector out....

                      Does anyone seriously think that it would be acceptable to have to change fuel injector seals every 45k and Toyota's recommendation to change fuel lines on top of that!....... (Even if only change just injector seals and return line washers) You would have to have rocks in your head to even think about that as being acceptable!... Sure!.. i can change them my self but what about the guys that are not mechanically minded or not have the tools... A good money spinner for the work shops though!

                      I wouldnt get hopes on toyota footing the bill as im sure they would use the "Out of warranty or not full service with us" clause for sure like demonstrated so many times in the past.

                      The oil change is not the problem but a mere band aid for a bad design!..... It is the badly designed injectors and seals failing to withstand the high combustion pressures. If the aluminum injector seat washer blows (Which it shouldn't but it clearly does) then the rubber o-ring will obviously blow as it is only supposed to seal out static residual oil that is pooling in the cylinder head as it drains back into the sump and a oil change will not stop the carbon build-up fragments from finding there way back to the oil-pick-up due to extreme heat escaping from the combustion chamber past the injector and burning the oil into hard carbon deposits... This also would cause a increase in crank-case pressures due to the combustion gases seeping past the injector as well as the normal seepage past the piston rings known as PVC (Positive Crankcase Ventilation).

                      Re-Cap!! fuel Injector seals every 45k, new fuel injector lines, remove/replace (R&R) sump-pan to check oil pick-up (not every workshop has tank inspection probe) And not forgetting the Hard yards on the fuel injector warranty issues.

                      These "so-called" (Now at least 5yr teething problems still not fixed) on top of a 5k oil and filter change (7Ltr every oil change) on new generation engine is an insane maintenance cost!

                      Is anyone looking at the big picture here as i am now seeing a very high maintenance vehicle!....

                      Cheers

                      PS. Torque setting injector clamp bolts x4 to the cylinder head: Nm = 22 or kgf-cm = 220 or ft-lbf = 16
                      Torque setting fuel return line x4 from the injectors: Nm = 16 or kgf-cm = 163 or ft-lbf = 12
                      Torque setting fuel return line x1 to the cylinder head: Nm = 13 or kgf-cm = 130 or ft-lbf = 9

                      Tip: Make sure "No" residual oil in injector bolt thread or could cause hydrolic of bolt or false torque setting.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Landuser thanks for posting all the info and pics.
                        My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks Davros, mjrandon & Skywalkerrun,

                          Just some clarification, everybody refers to the new Injector seals as Aluminium, I have even seen this states by senior Toyota techs, This is incorrect as they are actually a plated version of the early copper seal. This plating was the part number change in 2008. I have been told that the plating was in response to oxidation, and that this could be part of the leak issue that can ultimately destroy an engine.

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Latest D4D Plated Injector seal.jpg
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                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Early D4D plain Copper Injector Seal.jpg
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                          Landuser

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I am guilty of starting that then. They sure all looked aluminium to me.

                            Doesn't explain us pulling out non plated seals from a 8/2010 build Hilux 1KD-FTV though.

                            When I did mine, I took a grainy phone shot of the seals. It is obvious where the old seal failed. On the vehciles where I have seen or worked on, the injector with the faulty seal has looked very similar to the one in the photo in your previous post. Did you have much trouble getting that one out?
                            Attached Files
                            2008 Diesel Prado with extra stuff added. I drive it on the road and other places too.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As for the oxidation.... That is what I was commenting on last year. Surely the TMC engineers understand that a dissimilar metal sandwich such as steel, copper then aluminium is destined to fail. 1st year materials/mechanical engineering studies stuff IMO.
                              2008 Diesel Prado with extra stuff added. I drive it on the road and other places too.

                              Comment

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