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Will the alternator charge my second battery with a dual battery set-up???

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  • #31
    Ok am I'm missing something here so if I am please set me straight but isn't the redarc 12v dc to dc charger a better option to look after the battery as its a 3 stage float charger as opposed to the alternator smashing the battery with heaps of charging.
    Black 2011 Prado GXL D4D, Ironman 2" lift, TJM bullbar, TJM sidesteps, TJM steel bash plates, TAG towbar, Icom 440 UHF, redarc bcdc1220 with AGM battery, dual headrest DVD's, Waeco fridge, Cooper AT3's (when I kill these damn dunlops), rhino racks, orange TPMS.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Big Block View Post
      Ok am I'm missing something here so if I am please set me straight but isn't the redarc 12v dc to dc charger a better option to look after the battery as its a 3 stage float charger as opposed to the alternator smashing the battery with heaps of charging.

      Hmmm,

      One of the selling points of DC DC charges is that they supposedly charge the battery faster, therefore if
      you believe the hype wouldn't they be more inclined to smash battery with heaps of charging?

      Alternators have been charging batteries for the past 50 years or so without a problem, that's
      what they were designed to do and "NO" car manufacturer has seen a need to change what works.

      If it ain't broke then don't fix it.
      HKB Electronics, manufacturer of the Alternator Voltage Booster, Silver 2008 D4D,Lifted,Underbody protection, Alternator Voltage Booster, Tiger Z winch, Lightforce DL, Air Horns, Tanami Drawers, Drop down fridge slide, Outback cargo barriers, Rotronics dual Battery system, Polaris GPS, HF/UHF/VHF, Radio speaker combiner, Long ranger water tank, Diff breathers, Inverter, Snorkel and others

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Big Block View Post
        Ok am I'm missing something here so if I am please set me straight but isn't the redarc 12v dc to dc charger a better option to look after the battery as its a 3 stage float charger as opposed to the alternator smashing the battery with heaps of charging.
        The alternator charges your main battery fine doesn't it? All the sbi12 does is allow charge to flow from starting battery to aux battery untill they're at equal charge... Once they're at equal charge it's up to the alternator to cut out when it decides they're charged. Why bother spending $500 on something that probably won't make a difference.
        2011 150series GXL

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        • #34
          Originally posted by ss--ss View Post
          Gday, I also have one of these diodes & they definitely work. Have had it over a year now..
          Agree, one of my cheapest and best mods.
          [B]Steve[/B]

          2010 Silver GXL Prado 150, D4D Auto, with a few non standard bits

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          • #35
            Ok understand what you are saying and I had redarc sbi12 on 100 series worked a treat. Obviously different setup to the 150 and others so no diode thingy needed. So I run an AGM and not a lead acid start battery type (for want of a better description) so the alternator is obviously ok with charging main battery that is for sure but isn't it too harsh on an AGM. I thought the dc charger charged slower than the alternator based on the battery type. Forgive me if I'm dribbling cause I'm no auto leccy!
            Black 2011 Prado GXL D4D, Ironman 2" lift, TJM bullbar, TJM sidesteps, TJM steel bash plates, TAG towbar, Icom 440 UHF, redarc bcdc1220 with AGM battery, dual headrest DVD's, Waeco fridge, Cooper AT3's (when I kill these damn dunlops), rhino racks, orange TPMS.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Big Block View Post
              I thought the dc charger charged slower than the alternator based on the battery type.
              Hi Big Block, when using a DC/DC device, all types of batteries charge at the same rate and in the same time frame.

              The reason for this is that DC/DC devices ( and 240VAC battery chargers ) have set limited constant charge current and the voltage increases as the battery charges.

              With an alternator, different types of batteries will charge at different rates and in different time frames.

              The reason alternator charge batteries at different rates is because an alternator charges with a constant voltage and has no realistic current limitations.

              The use of constant current charging, particularly if it’s a small charging current, is by far the best way to charge any type of battery. This type of charging has a far better chance of fully charging a battery than what an alternator can do.

              The ruling factor in why an alternator does a better job than a constant current type charger is that while on the road, you just don’t have the time to allow this type of charging to be able to fully charge a battery.

              Plus, because of the limited current available, the more power and/or batteries you have, the longer you need to drive to fully charge your battery(s).

              On the other hand, while an alternator is also unlikely to fully charge your battery(s) and for the same reason, you are not likely to drive long enough to allow an alternator to fully charge batteries.

              But the the major factor in favour of alternators is the fact that they replace the largest percentage of the used battery capacity in the shortest time and the more power you use, the greater the advantage is for an alternator to do a better job.

              Now the draw back with new Toyotas is that they run at a lower operating voltage and this has the effect of needing much longer driving times to charge your battery(s).

              The reason for this is that the bigger the difference between the a battery’s actual State of Charge ( SoC ) voltage and the voltage being used to charge the battery, the faster the battery(s) will charge.

              So by increasing the Toyota’s operating voltage with the use of the Alternator Voltage Booster, the time needed to charge batteries reduces considerably, so less drive time is needed to charge the batteries.

              This is one of the misunderstandings about how DC/DC devices ( and battery chargers ) work.

              Most people read the info about these devices and they states these device can charge at say 14.4v while a Toyota alternator only charges at 13.2v.

              The correct facts are that because these devices are current limited, they only achieve the high charge voltages at the end of the charge cycle and as it is unlikely when trying to charge a low battery while driving, that these devices can actually get to these higher voltages.

              Whereas, with an Alternator Voltage Booster fitted, “ALL” your batteries ( not just one being charge by a DC/DC device ) are going to be charged, right from the start of your drive, at a much higher charge voltage and this is the reason that in the vast majority of cases, your alternator, while not fully charging your batteries, it is going to have “ALL” your batteries in a much higher state of charge at the end of your days drive.

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              • #37
                Thanks for taking the time to post such a comprehensive answer. Greatly appreciated. I have a much better understanding now.
                Black 2011 Prado GXL D4D, Ironman 2" lift, TJM bullbar, TJM sidesteps, TJM steel bash plates, TAG towbar, Icom 440 UHF, redarc bcdc1220 with AGM battery, dual headrest DVD's, Waeco fridge, Cooper AT3's (when I kill these damn dunlops), rhino racks, orange TPMS.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by LeighW View Post
                  One of the selling points of DC DC charges is that they supposedly charge the battery faster, therefore if
                  you believe the hype wouldn't they be more inclined to smash battery with heaps of charging?
                  They are advertised as charging the battery more fully. They use a multi-stage charging system, which is considered optimal for charging a battery and will avoid 'smashing' the battery. E.g. I've measured mine will dump 20 amps into the battery during the boost-phase and then it drops back considerably for the absorption and maintenance stages. This multi-stage charging process is recognised by many (not necessarily accepted by scrutineers) as the optimal way to charge a battery.

                  Battery manufacturers also publish charts that show the best way to charge their batteries. I couldn't find a chart quickly, but if you read Optima Charging, it is obvious the specs of the D4D alternator do not meet the recommendations [e.g. D4D voltage is ~13.2V]. Either ignore the battery manufacturer's recommendation or do something to meet them.

                  Originally posted by LeighW View Post
                  Alternators have been charging batteries for the past 50 years or so without a problem,
                  Yep, it will work; but just how well is up for debate. Though, we have come a long way in 50 years (5 years, even). Either accept the advances in science are real or reject them as heresy. A decision for the consumer.

                  Cheers,
                  LFaR.
                  [size=1][color=#770000]29Feb12:[/color][color=#777700]12GXLTD Auto, ARB Deluxe Winch bar, WARN 9.5xp Winch, IPF 900XS, Tow, Safari snorkel, Front + Rear Recovery points, ARB OME NC Sports, ATZ-4Rib[/color][color=grey], Silver[/color]. [color=orange][b]MaxTrax[/b][/color], [color=maroon]ScanGuage II[/color], [color=blue]ARB CKMA12[/color], [color=deeppink]UHF: GME TX3440 AE4018K1 UNH047SX[/color], [color=darkgreen]Bushranger Air Jack[/color], [color=green]Staun + ARB Deflators[/color], [color=brown]WindCheetah Roof Rack[/color], [color=green]Foxwing[/color], [color=red]Super Charge MRV70, Redarc BCDC1220[/color], [color=darkblue]ARB 60L fridge[/color], [color=blue]MSA Fridge Dropdown slide[/color], [color=darkyellow]DRIFTA Drawers[/color], [color=gold]TJM Bash Plates[/color], [color=brown]TG150[/color].[/size]

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by LiveFreeAndRoam View Post
                    It is obvious the specs of the D4D alternator do not meet the recommendations [e.g. D4D voltage is ~13.2V]. Either ignore the battery manufacturer's recommendation or do something to meet them.

                    LFaR.
                    Do people really only get 13.2 out of their alternators? Because mine puts out a great deal more charge than that when it is required.
                    2011 150series GXL

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by wooley View Post
                      Do people really only get 13.2 out of their alternators? Because mine puts out a great deal more charge than that when it is required.
                      I'm guessing yours is the petrol engine? The petrol will regularly put out ~14.5V.

                      On my D4D, I've measured this at multiple points. My ScanGauge reports 13.2V consistently. I've also used a voltmeter directly attached to battery terminals to avoid voltage loss over copper. It also read 13.2V.

                      The lower voltage output of the D4D is very well documented on PP and other forums. BTW, it's not just the D4D, but it seems that many 'smart' alternators across all ranges of cars have adopted lower charging voltages. I've read 'stories' about this being needed to meet emission standards, though I haven't bothered to investigate any further.

                      LFaR.
                      [size=1][color=#770000]29Feb12:[/color][color=#777700]12GXLTD Auto, ARB Deluxe Winch bar, WARN 9.5xp Winch, IPF 900XS, Tow, Safari snorkel, Front + Rear Recovery points, ARB OME NC Sports, ATZ-4Rib[/color][color=grey], Silver[/color]. [color=orange][b]MaxTrax[/b][/color], [color=maroon]ScanGuage II[/color], [color=blue]ARB CKMA12[/color], [color=deeppink]UHF: GME TX3440 AE4018K1 UNH047SX[/color], [color=darkgreen]Bushranger Air Jack[/color], [color=green]Staun + ARB Deflators[/color], [color=brown]WindCheetah Roof Rack[/color], [color=green]Foxwing[/color], [color=red]Super Charge MRV70, Redarc BCDC1220[/color], [color=darkblue]ARB 60L fridge[/color], [color=blue]MSA Fridge Dropdown slide[/color], [color=darkyellow]DRIFTA Drawers[/color], [color=gold]TJM Bash Plates[/color], [color=brown]TG150[/color].[/size]

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by LiveFreeAndRoam View Post
                        I'm guessing yours is the petrol engine? The petrol will regularly put out ~14.5V.
                        No, mines a diesel, that's why I've need understood all this low voltage thing, maybe mines broken... In a good way.

                        Originally posted by LiveFreeAndRoam View Post
                        On my D4D, I've measured this at multiple points. My ScanGauge reports 13.2V consistently. I've also used a voltmeter directly attached to battery terminals to avoid voltage loss over copper. It also read 13.2V.

                        The lower voltage output of the D4D is very well documented on PP and other forums. BTW, it's not just the D4D, but it seems that many 'smart' alternators across all ranges of cars have adopted lower charging voltages. I've read 'stories' about this being needed to meet emission standards, though I haven't bothered to investigate any further.

                        LFaR.
                        See I've measured mine as well using scan gauge and multimeter and it puts out higher voltage to charge starting and aux battery and when they're charged and at equilibrium it decreases/increases as necessary to maintain charge.

                        I regularly see 13.8-14.1 when car is started untill battery's are topped up.

                        Originally posted by LiveFreeAndRoam View Post
                        The lower voltage output of the D4D is very well documented on PP and other forums. BTW, it's not just the D4D, but it seems that many 'smart' alternators across all ranges of cars have adopted lower charging voltages. I've read 'stories' about this being needed to meet emission standards, though I haven't bothered to investigate any further.

                        LFaR.
                        Interesting. Perhaps they've change something in the later builds?
                        2011 150series GXL

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Well, well. It seems the alternator characteristics have changed between the 120 D4D and 150 D4D. That is interesting indeed.

                          From a battery charging perspective, the Calcium batteries require 15.6V (from memory). So if you chose a Calcium battery, then a DC-DC booster would still be required to reach the manufacturer's recommendation. If you have an Optima battery, then you can at least be satisfied the 150 D4D alternator can meet the manufacturers recommendations for charging voltage.

                          I should point out that boosting the voltage is just one feature of the DC-DC charger. So even if your car provides sufficient voltage for your battery, I'd recommend reading up on the other features, to help decide if they are worth the investment.

                          LFaR.
                          LiveFreeAndRoam
                          Avid PP Poster!
                          Last edited by LiveFreeAndRoam; 12-02-2012, 12:31 PM.
                          [size=1][color=#770000]29Feb12:[/color][color=#777700]12GXLTD Auto, ARB Deluxe Winch bar, WARN 9.5xp Winch, IPF 900XS, Tow, Safari snorkel, Front + Rear Recovery points, ARB OME NC Sports, ATZ-4Rib[/color][color=grey], Silver[/color]. [color=orange][b]MaxTrax[/b][/color], [color=maroon]ScanGuage II[/color], [color=blue]ARB CKMA12[/color], [color=deeppink]UHF: GME TX3440 AE4018K1 UNH047SX[/color], [color=darkgreen]Bushranger Air Jack[/color], [color=green]Staun + ARB Deflators[/color], [color=brown]WindCheetah Roof Rack[/color], [color=green]Foxwing[/color], [color=red]Super Charge MRV70, Redarc BCDC1220[/color], [color=darkblue]ARB 60L fridge[/color], [color=blue]MSA Fridge Dropdown slide[/color], [color=darkyellow]DRIFTA Drawers[/color], [color=gold]TJM Bash Plates[/color], [color=brown]TG150[/color].[/size]

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by LiveFreeAndRoam View Post
                            I should point out that boosting the voltage is just one feature of the DC-DC charger. So even if your car provides sufficient voltage for your battery, I'd recommend reading up on the other features, to help decide if they are worth the investment.

                            LFaR.
                            Hi LFaR, and the facts are that if you have higher alternator voltage in the first place, batteries like Optima, can be charged with full inrush currents, as stated by Optima, and as such, instead of taking 4 or so hours to charge the battery using a DC/DC device, an alternator working at around 14v will do it in less that half the time.

                            As for the claims made that a battery is going to be charge more fully using a DC/DC device, TRUE but again two small points need to be clarified.

                            1. As I have stated many, MANY times, these devices can only fully charge the battery if you drive long enough, and the lower the battery is when you start your drive, the less likely you are going to fully charge your battery by any means, so their claimed advantage is nullified if your a heavy user of power while camped.

                            2. If you do drive long enough then yes these devices could fully charge your ONE battery to 100%. And their claims that their device can fully charge Calcium/Calcium ( Ca/Ca ) batteries to 100% are probably correct, again, as long as you actually drive long enough.

                            By now everybody knows an alternator can not fully charge a Ca/Ca so no matter how long you drive for you will never have a fully charge Ca/Ca battery when using an alternator as the charging source.

                            Now does anybody know what this actually means?

                            After a 10 hour drive, is your Ca/Ca only ever going to be charged to what? 90%, 80%, maybe only 70%. According to info supplied on one of Exide’s subsidiary’s web sites, the average alternator can charge a Ca/Ca battery up around 95 to 97%.

                            So LFaR, if you think it is good value to spend $400 - $600 to get a gain of at best just 5% in ONE battery, over what your alternator can do. Mate go for it, but as posted above, for just $35 you can get “ALL” your batteries to at least 95%

                            There are two sides to most stories and these DC/DC devices are being sold without the full story being given.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by wooley View Post
                              I regularly see 13.8-14.1 when car is started untill battery's are topped up.


                              Interesting. Perhaps they've change something in the later builds?
                              Hi wooley and I had heard roomers that Toyota was going to raise their operating voltages again and I have heard similar roomers about some of the European makes.

                              Seems the low operating voltages have caused more problems than they have solved.
                              drivesafe
                              Senior Member
                              Last edited by drivesafe; 12-02-2012, 01:29 PM. Reason: typo correction

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by drivesafe View Post
                                So LFaR, if you think it is good value to spend $400 - $600 to get a gain of at best just 5% in ONE battery, over what your alternator can do. Mate go for it, but as posted above, for just $35 you can get “ALL” your batteries to at least 95%
                                Clearly, if the 5% was the only concern, then you're making a valid point.

                                Easy though; I've never suggested that. However, I do encourage everyone to investigate this, to satisfy their own needs. There's a lot of info out there and there are many variables in everyone's configuration.

                                LFaR.
                                LiveFreeAndRoam
                                Avid PP Poster!
                                Last edited by LiveFreeAndRoam; 12-02-2012, 02:02 PM.
                                [size=1][color=#770000]29Feb12:[/color][color=#777700]12GXLTD Auto, ARB Deluxe Winch bar, WARN 9.5xp Winch, IPF 900XS, Tow, Safari snorkel, Front + Rear Recovery points, ARB OME NC Sports, ATZ-4Rib[/color][color=grey], Silver[/color]. [color=orange][b]MaxTrax[/b][/color], [color=maroon]ScanGuage II[/color], [color=blue]ARB CKMA12[/color], [color=deeppink]UHF: GME TX3440 AE4018K1 UNH047SX[/color], [color=darkgreen]Bushranger Air Jack[/color], [color=green]Staun + ARB Deflators[/color], [color=brown]WindCheetah Roof Rack[/color], [color=green]Foxwing[/color], [color=red]Super Charge MRV70, Redarc BCDC1220[/color], [color=darkblue]ARB 60L fridge[/color], [color=blue]MSA Fridge Dropdown slide[/color], [color=darkyellow]DRIFTA Drawers[/color], [color=gold]TJM Bash Plates[/color], [color=brown]TG150[/color].[/size]

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