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Does the Redarc BCDC offer any benefits over an SBI12 system?

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  • #61
    hey guys sorry... i have read this whole topic and am confused, we are a recent 150 owner and are currenly adding the essentials. ive been told, recommended i need the bcdc system but after reading this am questioning what ive been told, what you guys are saying is that this sbi12 system is going to be enough for what i want to run in the car...?? will be a fridge, lights and a couple of usb chagers...

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    • #62
      Originally posted by timnkel01 View Post
      hey guys sorry... i have read this whole topic and am confused, we are a recent 150 owner and are currenly adding the essentials. ive been told, recommended i need the bcdc system but after reading this am questioning what ive been told, what you guys are saying is that this sbi12 system is going to be enough for what i want to run in the car...?? will be a fridge, lights and a couple of usb chagers...
      Sbi12 does just fine so long as you have a voltage boosting diode. It looks like a fuse and replaces the ALT S fuse in your fuse box. Then you have higher volatage, and that charges your battery faster.

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      • #63
        For what you want it will be fine to run an isolator like an SBi12 and a voltage booster diode. You could get away without having the diode but with the low voltages that can be experienced with the Prado's i.e. around 13.2v, your isolator may switch on and off a lot more as they turn on at about 13.2v. Having the booster diode increases the vehicles voltage to an average minimum of 13.7v (in hot climates).

        Just run a cable that is rated high enough for your application and future expansion (normally 6 B&S or 16mm2) to the back of the vehicle.

        Try and select a battery that has quick charge times and can run at lower voltages. Optima batteries are an example of this. They may have a lower Ah rating but make up for it by charging faster. Keep it simple and ensure your joins are clean and done correctly and maintained. 90% of electrical faults are the connections, especially if they are in the engine bay as they are exposed to heat, vibrations, water mud etc.
        winniliss
        Avid PP Poster!
        Last edited by winniliss; 23-02-2014, 10:23 AM.
        Winston.

        White 2009 120 Series D4D GXL manual.

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        • #64
          As above a standard isolator when used in conjunction with a VSR for high compensation alternators will charge very effectively, if you have a older type alternator then you won't need the booster.

          Basic facts:

          A conventional VSR and booster diode if required will replace the bulk of charge into a battery much quicker than a 20A charger can, the following is the results of testing I did with a Prado D4D 120 fitted with a marine pro 600:

          Test environment:
          Toyota 120 Prado D4D
          Cranking battery Optima D27F (fully charged)
          Aux Marine Pro 600 about 50% SOC (12.04V)
          Rotronics isolator in simple VSR mode
          Alternator output voltage about 14.3V – 14.1V
          Ambient temperature 24C
          Monitoring equipment, wireless amp & volt meters.
          Sample Rate Amps & Volts = 2 Seconds interval, range auto.
          The following graphs are constructed from the real time data:

          Click image for larger version

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          Analyses of data:

          Average charge rate for first 60 minutes = 28.23A

          Average charge rate for last 40 minutes = 15.1A

          Total charge replaced in 1 hour 40 minutes = 43.33A (86.66%)

          A 20A DCDC charger would have replaced = 33.33A (66.66%)


          Results show a marine pro 600 when discharged to an SOC of 50% will recharge to around the 90% point in around 1 hour and 40 minutes, a DCDC charger would have achieved about 70% in the same time in an in car setup.

          The more battery capacity you have, the more the battery is discharged or the higher charge rates the battery can accept the more the advantage swings towards the simple VSR.

          Also worth noting in the above vehicle the use of 6B&S cable would improve the charging performance, 6B&S though was not used in this case, lighter cable was used to control the maximum recharge current as multiple batteries will be installed.

          To obtain better charging performance using a DCDC charger a 40A charger would be required, however in the above case use of 6B&S would provide similar performance.

          If using a 40A charger the following points would need to be considered:

          A 40A charger is very expensive compared to a simple VSR setup and can only do one battery, if you add another battery the performance will drop to that of a 20A charger, with a VSR assuming a separate feed supply cable is run to each battery from the isolator the recharge time will remain the same for one two or three batteries assuming the alternator has enough reserve capacity to charge them and the isolator is located close to the charge source ie cranking battery.

          You could use two 40A chargers to better recharge times for two batteries but then what you need to consider apart from the cost is that the chargers will continue to draw around 90A from the alternator until the batteries reach the 80% SOC mark or there abouts and the alternator most likely not going to be very happy about that!

          By using a simple isolator and selecting suitable cable recharge currents can somewhat managed to protect alternator, as can they by use of a smaller ie 20A charger if required.

          Cheers
          Leigh
          Attached Files
          LeighW
          Avid PP Poster!
          Last edited by LeighW; 24-02-2014, 03:50 PM.
          HKB Electronics, manufacturer of the Alternator Voltage Booster, Silver 2008 D4D,Lifted,Underbody protection, Alternator Voltage Booster, Tiger Z winch, Lightforce DL, Air Horns, Tanami Drawers, Drop down fridge slide, Outback cargo barriers, Rotronics dual Battery system, Polaris GPS, HF/UHF/VHF, Radio speaker combiner, Long ranger water tank, Diff breathers, Inverter, Snorkel and others

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          • #65
            Man am I confused, think I'll put the Prado on the market buy a proper fast car and just stay in a motel with a fully stocked mini bar. Then I'll stop looking at forums where people get nasty with each other for having opposing opinions!

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            • #66
              Ren there are a few questions you need to answer before you decide which system / battery. The first is what are you going to be running off the battery? And how are you going to keep it topped up, alternator, solar, generator etc. That will determine how many AH you need so the battery doesn't go flat between charges. Then work out where you will put the battery, under the bonnet or in the body of the car. The first means pretty much ant battery will work if it is big enough. If the second then you are limited pretty much to an AGM.

              Now for charging from the alternator you can go the isolator (and probably diode), a smart electronic charger or the DC DC charger. A deep cycle battery housed under the bonnet will work well with the isolator and diode and is probably the cheapest option. The most expensive is the AGM and DC DC in the car. For what it is worth I have tried all these options and I am running the AGM / DC DC system in the car, for a number of reasons.

              Bear in mind a 100 AH battery won't give you 100 AH capacity, more like 60 or 70 AH depending on the battery. Best bet is to check the battery makers website and get the specs for the batteries you are looking at. Lots of people like Optimas because they accept huge charging currents and charge quickly but they are expensive in $ / AH. I use solar to keep my battery topped up so charging time is less important to me than overall capacity.

              Leigh can you clarify something for me please? I can't agree with your numbers, 28.23 A for one hour will put 28.23 AH into the battery, more or less. 15.1 A for 40 minutes will put 10.07 AH into the battery so the total would be 38.3 AH. Still more that the 20 A being supplied by the DC charger which could put 33.3 AH into the battery. My DC DC charger rarely puts out its maximum charge rate of 25 A but then the maximum charge rate for my a Ritar is about 30 A and continuous input at this level isn't recommended.

              The speed of charging will depending on a few things, how much the battery can accept (without affecting its life), what the alternator has available as spare capacity and the system limitations.
              mjrandom
              Out of control poster!
              Last edited by mjrandom; 23-02-2014, 08:56 PM. Reason: Clarification
              My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic

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              • #67
                +7 for the diode. I thought I'd provide some real world feedback

                When I go camping I run my fridge from the aux battery for weeks on end without any real problems and often only doing a few short daily runs in the car. My mate with the same car but a DC-DC often has to leave his car running for 30-60min to get battery charge up. And yes we have the same size fridges and same model Prados.

                edit: I'm amazed how many times this topic gets rehashed from scratch. Probably just best off doing what you want rather than trying to argue the point.
                [B]Steve[/B]

                2010 Silver GXL Prado 150, D4D Auto, with a few non standard bits

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                • #68
                  Hi mjrandom,

                  Yes you are correct, the charge rate is dependent on the SOC of the battery and the battery itself, the alternator voltage, the reserve capacity of the alternator etc, and that is why I specified the exact test environment, ie Prado D4D, marine pro discharged to 50% SOC, the ambient temperature etc.

                  For the 20A charger figures I have assumed the charger will maintain 20A output over the measuring period as the battery terminal voltage was below 14.4V volts the trigger point at which the CTEK reverts to constant voltage charging and below the trigger point for the Redarc chargers, the chargers may well not maintain this level but I have given them the benefit of the doubt and gone with the manufactures specifications.

                  I have added the real time data recording to my post above.

                  Cheers
                  Leigh
                  LeighW
                  Avid PP Poster!
                  Last edited by LeighW; 24-02-2014, 03:53 PM.
                  HKB Electronics, manufacturer of the Alternator Voltage Booster, Silver 2008 D4D,Lifted,Underbody protection, Alternator Voltage Booster, Tiger Z winch, Lightforce DL, Air Horns, Tanami Drawers, Drop down fridge slide, Outback cargo barriers, Rotronics dual Battery system, Polaris GPS, HF/UHF/VHF, Radio speaker combiner, Long ranger water tank, Diff breathers, Inverter, Snorkel and others

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by REN470 View Post
                    Man am I confused, think I'll put the Prado on the market buy a proper fast car and just stay in a motel with a fully stocked mini bar. Then I'll stop looking at forums where people get nasty with each other for having opposing opinions!
                    REN470,

                    It really is personnel preference, either system will work, a VSR is generally considerably cheaper and will give at least similar performance in an under bonnet install or superior performance if high charge rate batteries, multiple batteries or large capacity batteries are installed together with suitable cabling.

                    Cheers
                    Leigh
                    HKB Electronics, manufacturer of the Alternator Voltage Booster, Silver 2008 D4D,Lifted,Underbody protection, Alternator Voltage Booster, Tiger Z winch, Lightforce DL, Air Horns, Tanami Drawers, Drop down fridge slide, Outback cargo barriers, Rotronics dual Battery system, Polaris GPS, HF/UHF/VHF, Radio speaker combiner, Long ranger water tank, Diff breathers, Inverter, Snorkel and others

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Hi,

                      Thanks for the feedback.


                      I'm currently waiting on an ARB bulbar for the 14 spec. A warn winch and some IPF light will go on at the same time and I will probably add an awning with some sort of lighting and a fridge sometime down the track. All i really want a second battery for is if I'm out fishing at night and the awning light and fridge are on I don't end up with a flat battery. So it sounds like a SBi12 and diode are the go? The cost doesn't concern me just the end result, I just want something that does the job without being overcomplicated.

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                      • #71
                        I think that the K.I.S.S. principle applies....I'm running a Redarc SB12 and have been for nearly 3 years...Still on original battery and the Aux Battery as well.Never had a problem and so recon there is no need to complicate it..Run a Old 60 Litre Engel (Man they suck the Amps on start.!!)I run my driving lights off the Isolator "INLET" terminal so always have full power there (from either battery) so the lights(relay) get the best voltage available.I still can't understand why my Aux always has a higher residual voltage after driving but the main can always start the vehicle...All I can assume is that the different types of batteries (wet cells) seem to "peak" at different voltages..

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                        • #72
                          Different chemistry.
                          HKB Electronics, manufacturer of the Alternator Voltage Booster, Silver 2008 D4D,Lifted,Underbody protection, Alternator Voltage Booster, Tiger Z winch, Lightforce DL, Air Horns, Tanami Drawers, Drop down fridge slide, Outback cargo barriers, Rotronics dual Battery system, Polaris GPS, HF/UHF/VHF, Radio speaker combiner, Long ranger water tank, Diff breathers, Inverter, Snorkel and others

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            HI

                            My mate has the Redark SB12 in his 2016 150 GXL. He has a 75 amp Century AGM as his single deep cycle under the bonnet.
                            He now wants to run a 50amp anderson to his rear bar and connect it to his camper trailer to charge two 100AH AGMs when towing. The two 100ah are connected in parellel.
                            He has been told his redarc SB12 can handle it.

                            But I'm concerned there is no point trying to run two 100 batteries down stream of a 75ah battery. My understanding is the 100s will never get fully charged due to the smaller/older and different brand battery in bonnet. All are AGMs.

                            So Im wondering if he could leave his redark in place and run a cteck d250s separately down to an Anderson for charging his CTs system. From reading this thread he may need to run a voltage booster diode.

                            Thanks in advance for any advice.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Hi Kiro, first off, when charging direct from an alternator, because of the way alternators charge, you can have any mix of battery types and they will all be charged properly, and they will be fully charge, if you drive long enough.

                              The same can be claimed when using a DC/DC device but usually, it will take a longer driving time than when charging direct from an alternator. And the bigger the total battery capacity is that you are trying to recharge with a DC/DC device, the MUCH longer you will need to drive.

                              The one thing you must be careful of, is that the DC/DC device is set to the maximum voltage for the battery with the lowest maximum charge voltage ( not required with that Ctek )

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Kiro View Post
                                So Im wondering if he could leave his redark in place and run a cteck d250s separately down to an Anderson for charging his CTs system. From reading this thread he may need to run a voltage booster diode..
                                Put the d250s in the camper trailer. I believe it's best having DCDC charger close to the batteries it is charging. I've done this in my CT. Wiring between Alternator and trailer batteries was a bit dodgy, so I used the DCDC charger to boost the voltage (and I needed a solar control in the trailer). The alternator happily charges Starting and Aux batteries (to 100%) and DCDC puts close to 20aH into the trailer batteries. 4 weeks of touring and it all worked well.
                                [SIZE=1]2010 150 GXL Ebony Diesel | ARB Delux Bar | ARB Bashplates | GME 3450 UHF | Bilstein/Dobinson lift | SA LED Lighting 185W Spotties | Bridgestone D697LT | Wet Seat covers | LeighW's Voltage booster | Tin75 Pet barrier | 3D Mats'n'boot protector | Onboard ARB CKMA12 Compressor | Rhino Pioneer Platform | Roadsafe Recovery Points | Airtec Snorkel[/SIZE]

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