Would you pull me out?

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

Given the terrain, I would have no issues at all. There is no mud, sand or in April snow. The only vehicles needing a tow will be those on road tyres that do not let them down enough to get enough grip, and then it will be a tow. I agree with your point as if you cannot move a stuck vehicle with a lightly loaded strap, you should be using another method.

Hi James, as a member of a 4x4 club you are, I assume they/ you are pretty well informed.
Tell me, when you joined the Club, or at any time have they told you, your Prado tow points are not satisfactory
Or that you cannot use them on a trip or go on a trip?

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

How large is your weld? Was it welded horrizontaly, vertically, up or down? Rule of thumb is 25mm of 6mm fillet weld will hold one tonne, but that assumes a lot of other factors are correct.

I used to weld and train people to weld in a car factory, I would not trust a weld from a car factory.

A grade 8.8 bolt meets a standard, that standard is consistent so you know you are dealing with a known quantity.

Really what the person bogged thinks is safe is irrelevant, it's what the recoverer who is not bogged thinks that matters. This topic has been discussed to death in various threads

Cheers Andrew

Ok, so if we go "rule of thumb" we only have 6-7tonne of strength at each point so total of 13tonne, who hoo.

What country was the car factory in? I'd think like most things the japanese make, the welds are pretty good all the way on the whole chassis of these beasts. If it wasn't we would hear of chassis cracking at welds as common as d4d injector failures.

Yes 8.8, it does meet a standard, no facts on if that standard is really satisfactory.

I think it's a combination of everyone, & what they might be able to add to any safety. More brains = more ideas.
It's not discussed to death quite yet :-)

But cheers for the input & replies.

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Here are some previous discussion
http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?20529-Recovery-points-at-the-front
http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...ecovery-points
http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...ecovery-points
http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...-Snatch-Points

Note that sometime in 2006, the factory tie down points changed from being welded underneath to being through the cross member.

As Andrew said, no 2 welds are the same. Bolts are made to a minimum strength standard. The bolts used on recovery points are bigger than the ones used to hold up the bashplates and should be of a higher tensile grade than 8.8.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

Note that sometime in 2006, the factory tie down points changed from being welded underneath to being through the cross member.

As Andrew said, no 2 welds are the same. Bolts are made to a minimum strength standard. The bolts used on recovery points are bigger than the ones used to hold up the bashplates and should be of a higher tensile grade than 8.8.

Correct yes, rather than having 4x40mm welds each side along the 14mm steel, they go through chassis, looks much better.
So they still have 4 welds per point, but they are 360 degree welds in front & again at the rear.
Not sure which would be stronger. A test would have to prove that one as well.

I agree welds maybe not the same, but pretty bloody good. Same as no 2 bolts are the same, they don't individually test all of those. Yes the bash plate ones are only 8mm ( less the thread cut out depth). I see that most of the bolts that fix recovery points are 10-12mm always remember the thread depth is cut out, which can also create a weakness.
Subtract 2mm off the diameter to find the real diameter. Nothing as thick as those factory 14mm points :-)

Thank you for your input.
So I assume, that was a leave me behind????

[mackayvx Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close mackayvx]

So what grade bolts are best on recovery points if 8.8 insnt sufficient?

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Without labouring this there are a couple of things that need to be considered. The bolts supplied with my points were grade 12.9 which are higher strength than 8.8. The bolts are tensioned and the load is in shear. Not trying to stretch the bolts. Finally a weld is only as good as what it is joining and the geometry of that joint. The factory points would put significant bending stress on that lower section of the chassis and where it attaches to the main chassis rails.

I have winched off those points using a bridle. Loads weren't high nor were they sudden shock loads (it's ok anyone can bog a tractor). I would have been prepared to snatch off them too but I would defer to the owner of the car I was relying on pulling me out. They would have to be happy.

As far as I know none of the respected 4wd schools think the factory points are suitable to snatch off and neither does Toyota. This is why I have fitted aftermarket points to my 150.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

So what grade bolts are best on recovery points if 8.8 insnt sufficient?

Hey Drew,

8.8 is the base in high tensile bolts.
Whether they are ok or not would need to be tested.
Think about a side pull or using a bridle, it creates leverage end on those bolts, possibly loading them 1 by one.
I'm not saying they are no good, in most citations, with a smart recovery they will be fine.
If you cannot move the vehicle, without a quarter mile take off then digging and or winching might be a safer choice.

Just interested to see who believes the 14mm welded poles are no good.
It appears there's no absolute.
In recent times I've noticed persons & recovery points being fitted with higher grade bolts than 8.8.

[mackayvx Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close mackayvx]

Interesting... 12.9 grade bolts are high enough then on the tensile rating?

So lets talk tourqe... Whats a good tourqe for these bolts on those recovery points?

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

Interesting... 12.9 grade bolts are high enough then on the tensile rating?

So lets talk tourqe... Whats a good tourqe for these bolts on those recovery points?

12.9 are much better than 8.8.
Torque is a good question.
I would check with my expert bolt bloke, I can if you don't get an answer here.

It depends on the dia of the bolt. I think 12mm 12.9h/t maximum s 150nm

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

mvx I believe it is written in the recovery point thread. I didnt fit mine but would expect the values to be wriiten in the instructions. The bolts are in shear which lets you use about 65% of the strength. Tensioned correctly you also get friction between the plates helping. A bridle won't put any significant bending in the plate or affect the bolt loading as long as the bolts are tensioned correctly.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

I'm glad it's keeping us all entertained.
With no chip it to winge about well there got to be something happening.

Firstly they are not tie down points.
You know, I shouldn't expect non vehicle technicians to understand that either.

I have no problem with the replacement yellow points, it's the 2 lowsy 8.8 bolts that come with it on the 120 series.
I know many of those bolts are made in china, not might be.
I have personal experience with how crap they are.
E.g a 10mm dia 8.8 maximum torque is around 50nm, not much.
If you go further, which I have tested, they strip or shear in half.
Some worse than others, you know no 2 bolts are the same.

FYI an Arb Bullbar is held on with those crappy 10mm 8.8 bolts, but some ppl think those Bullbar recovery points are ok. When I recover a 120 with a Arb bar, I use factory points, no probs.
Once again no issues with the bar, but what's holding it on.......
Like most of these points, the strap will break before most of them, exept or tie own points.

Glad you know my answer to your question.
So r u still pulling me out or leaving me behind?

[CaLLaN 52 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close CaLLaN 52]

No I would leave you stuck and would lmfao if it was in mud . I would pull you out haven't i already done that and this topic is a hot one.

Would that be Mud with out water, lol

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

Hey Steve, the 10.9 are in between the crappy 8.8 and the much better 12.9 lol.....

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

I have inspected numerous welds on tie down points on the front of Prado's, in a few cases significant amounts of the weld has not even contacted both pieces of metal. That's the problem, consistency!

8.8 or grade 5 imperial bolts in 12mm or 1/2 inch have been the standard for fitting recovery hooks to 4wd's since Adam was a lad, you find these bolts with rated hooks so therefore must have been tested.

Have you ever heard of these bolts failing in a recovery point?

Seems to me you are trying to reinvent the wheel.

I welded Mitsubishi's together for what it's worth, an Australian factory making Japanese cars.

Cheers Andrew

[rags Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close rags]

Yes i would pull a Prado out if it only had the so called tie down points.,it is the Australia thing to do. If it had some fancy yellow /red/blue /green recovery point i would then use them. I would also make sure that i only used rated recovery shackels and a snatch strap that had not been overly used or abused.
The scenario is we are on a PP year get together trip i am in front of the bogged Prado that Prado has 4 more cars behind it ,all with kids in them ,we are 5km from camp and food. As i said before of cause i would attempt to pull the Prado out it is the Aussie thing to do ,to help out., better than the alternative ,sorry Ant can't help you you havent got the correct recovery point,see you back at camp when you get yourself out,I don't think so.
Would i stop that Prado attending the trip because of the lack of fancy recovery points,no. What i would ensure is always done and is more important is to have a dampening cover over the strap in case there is some sort of failure.
Boys get over it ,you are going on a trip together to enjoy the mateship that has been formed over a common interest in Prados thru this forum,and are not on some sort of daka rally where rollbars and harnesses are mandatory.
Gee I hope the new BT50 that arrives soon at least has a tie down point so me mates can bag me when they have to tow me out of a bog with their
Toynisbishi, and not get upset and leave me stranded.
cheers Russ