2014 PP G.T.G - Minimum vehicle requirements & recomendations

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

You say a towbar hitch receiver for rear recovery point, at no point in the foreseeable future do I intend to lower my standards to the point I would use the towbar.

I do not have factory tow hooks so forget them, my front points are also not after market so they miss out there as well. What I do have are attached with 8.8 bolts which MAY be OK, which indicates they may also NOT be ok, so which is it?

I realize that what you have posted is not final and I am happy to wait for the final draft to see if I comply, but at this point from what's written I can't tell.

Cheers Andrew

[Dupes68 Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dupes68]

Ntp, I agree with your comments and sentiment - well put.

I think it is fair to say, and I stress again it is not clear in the requirements, the minimum vehicle requirements were meant to be for the trips specifically - NOT for general attendance. This is not clear in the thread. If PPers wish to attend in a bog standard Prado for the camaraderie they should certainly not be precluded - in fact they should be encouraged and welcomed. They may however not be able to join one of the trips if it is deemed by the Trip Leader that their vehicle might hinder the enjoyment/safety of the other convoy members. I don't think that is unreasonable. That is exactly the reason for trying to put together various trips of different ratings to cater for all vehicle standards and driver abilities.

AJ, point taken about rear recovery hitch. The tow point issue has clouded matters, perhaps unnecessarily, and that's only my opinion.

IN MY OPINION (i.e. not that of the entire organising committee) perhaps the requirements/suggested inclusions should be re-written to be clearer for all.

At the end of the day the GTG is supposed to be a fun time for all who attend, an opportunity to meet new people with like-minded interests, learn from others' knowledge and experiences, etc., etc.

Cheers
John.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

You say a towbar hitch receiver for rear recovery point, at no point in the foreseeable future do I intend to lower my standards to the point I would use the towbar.

I do not have factory tow hooks so forget them, my front points are also not after market so they miss out there as well. What I do have are attached with 8.8 bolts which MAY be OK, which indicates they may also NOT be ok, so which is it?

I realize that what you have posted is not final and I am happy to wait for the final draft to see if I comply, but at this point from what's written I can't tell.

Cheers Andrew

You can pick out the parts, and jumble it up whichever way you like.
IT IS A GUIDE.
IT GIVES EXAMPLES OF WHAT MAY BE OK.
IT SAYS STANDARD & aftermarket points MAY BE OK.
andrew, what you have attached at front must be an aftermarket product!
Or do you have a special order?
Bolted n points from factory?
We cannot say if they are safe. We are making recommendations.

One thing the committee agreed on is that standard prados can come so if you want to come with bald grand treks
& no recovery gear you can. But you might look silly. I'm sure most people get the idea of what's required.
The active committee members have access to the 2014PPGTG & password & any of them can add/remove/edit at any time.

What do you want to argue about? You comply!

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

"Suitable Tow/recovery points. Rear Towbar receiver with a recovery point inserted. Aftermarket points may be ok, We recommend grade 12.9 for any bols used.
Front Factory tow point may be ok. Visibly it should be in good condition. Aftermarket points may be ok. Once again prefer grade 12.9 bolts are used. If your bolts are 8.8 or 10.9 etc that may be ok.
Dedicated tie down points are not acceptable"

First sentence suitable!. You decide what is suitable. If you use a Towbar, we reccomended you use with a recovery point. We recommend better bolts. Front factory tow point may be ok?????? Well who knows..... We know what you believe. AFTERMARKET POINTS MA BE OK, well I haven't seen all the different types, nor did I fit them.
So generally we think they should be ok, but not prepared to write they are ok in our GUIDE.
We reccomended better bolts, why wouldn't you?
We think that tie down points are no good.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

I don't particularly agree with the minimum vehicle requirements. Rather, I think there should be recommended standards and modifications.

In my mind, the only minimum standards should be:

"It is up to the vehicle owner/driver to make sure the vehicles & trailers are safe & registered & in roadworthy condition. Also that these aftermarket accessories/items be fitted correctly."

At the end of the day, there is no obligation to ever recover anyone. The only legal obligation is to render assistance or succour if someone life's depends on it. This doesn't include the recovery of property.

If someone gets stuck, it is up to the recover vehicle/driver to decide whether or not they wish to engage with the bogged vehicle and involve their own vehicle (at their risk) to recover the bogged vehicle.

Surely the event won't be excluding prado pointers from attending simply because the don't have every accessory or modification? What if someone wants to simply attend for the camaraderie? And what prevents a prado pointer from attending the same area and tracks at the same time of their own volition?

I would welcome other prado pointers to attend with their prados whether or not it is stock standard.

As for tracks and runs, this should be determined on a day-to-day and vehicle-by-vehicle basis. Sure, let the committee make an assessment of each vehicle upon initial attendance, but don't exclude from everything just because someone doesn't have every recovery option. Indeed, driver ability may be just an important consideration as their vehicle capability - so who assesses this?

As you say in the initial post, the GTG doesn't anticipate or plan to be getting vehicles bogged or driving in adverse conditions. Indeed, there should be track/day options for inexperienced and stock standard vehicles as well as some more challenging (opt in) options.

I'd rather see more prado pointers attend with a range of vehicles, all well maintained and roadworthy, than requiring too much by way of recovery options standards.

Sometimes I think we make life way too complicated.

Completely agree.
That's why we decided standard prados can come.
Standard prados can do these drives.
We are taking some care to point possible newbies in the right direction.
I believe a standard Prado can do all these tracks & can be recovered if need should arise,as it is standard also.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Speaking from experience here, as a committee you are going to need to convey a heap of information to those attending or thinking of attending, you will save yourselves a lot of heartache and work if you can make those messages as clear as possible. I found the minimum requirements thread at best vague, given your clarifications in this thread it also seems somewhat confusing to me. If as it now seems there are no minimum vehicle requirements then a statement to that effect at the start followed by your recommendations would make things crystal clear.

I don't want to argue, I just want to know what is required of me, what the standards for this trip are and whether I comply or what I need to do to comply if I wish to attend, I could not clarify any of that from the thread as it stood.

3 out of 4 of my recovery points are home made at least in part, so neither after market or factory! I know I am not the only person attending that also fits into this category.

Cheers Andrew

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

So is there anyone else attending or would like to attend the 2014ppgtg that's not sure about the minimum requirements? We have & can change it more if that helps.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

Speaking from experience here, as a committee you are going to need to convey a heap of information to those attending or thinking of attending, you will save yourselves a lot of heartache and work if you can make those messages as clear as possible. I found the minimum requirements thread at best vague, given your clarifications in this thread it also seems somewhat confusing to me. If as it now seems there are no minimum vehicle requirements then a statement to that effect at the start followed by your recommendations would make things crystal clear.

I don't want to argue, I just want to know what is required of me, what the standards for this trip are and whether I comply or what I need to do to comply if I wish to attend, I could not clarify any of that from the thread as it stood.

3 out of 4 of my recovery points are home made at least in part, so neither after market or factory! I know I am not the only person attending that also fits into this category.

Cheers Andrew

Thanks Andrew,

That's right. You are ok. If you believe those points are suitable. Which you do. I'm sure they are.
I would have thought you & anyone else attending may have read those requirements before they put their name down or shortly after. You are the first & only person to bring it up. It's had a minor edit, if you or others cannot figure it out we will re write it for you. Please have a look & care full read, my understanding is, it's on you, & we are not policing it.
GUIDE & RECOMMENDATION are the key words to look for

Clear as mud?

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Clear as mud?

That was the problem

I read the requirements as soon as I became aware of them, it's hard keeping up while on the road with limited access, surprising I have access now given where I am, camped out in the bush, listening to the tide roll in, doing it tough.

I might be the only one that has bothered to read them!

Cheers Andrew

[VKPrado Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close VKPrado]

So is there anyone else attending or would like to attend the 2014ppgtg that's not sure about the minimum requirements? We have & can change it more if that helps.

I have read the minimum requirements and thought they were only in like a draft state till the top line had been removed. The "clear as mud" comment did sort of sum it up in that it is not fully sorted yet till it is crystal clear.

If the minimum requirements from last year were good then why not just copy them. It seems the wheel has to be re-invented ever time there is a GTG.

Just state what people have to have as the minimum then anything else is just up to the individuals if they want to go above and beyond.

[iantz Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close iantz]

Just state what people have to have as the minimum then anything else is just up to the individuals if they want to go above and beyond.

I agree with Vaughan. It's confusing at the moment. The start of the thread talks about required recovery points etc, but then Anthony has said in the last page or so that they're not going to restrict anyone because decisions can't be made about what's safe etc etc. Surely there are things that are a definite mandatory requirement like Fire Extinguisher, Radio, etc etc. These shouldn't be negotiable. If the committee can't decide on something being 'mandatory' like after market recovery points, then don't include it in the minimum requirements list. Instead, have some kind of disclaimer, like 'in the event that your vehicle needs recovering, the GTG committee nor any other attendee guarantees to facilitate an extraction of your vehicle. Recoveries will be judged on an as-needs basis, and help may be dependent on the type of recovery points available on your vehicle, and the recovering vehicle's willingness to snatch off said points'.

I, like some others maybe, don't have officially 'purchased' after market points. I had a good friend laser cut 12mm steel plates at his work as per a DIY recovery point thread on PP. in terms of the disclaimer sentence above, I'm comfortable with my recovery points, and I know anyone accompanying me would snatch off them before the Toyo tie down points.

In short, a clear list of requirements in a simple post. The list isn't negotiable. I don't see why Bullbars etc would be required, so I don't suspect the list will be hard to comply with. Just my 2 cents...

[baggs71 Inactive member. Find all posts View Profile Close baggs71]

So minimum is
Recov points of sound type
Basic recov gear
AT tyres
Fire extinguisher
1st aid kit
Shovel
Uhf
Compressor & tyre guage

Right?

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

I have read the minimum requirements and thought they were only in like a draft state till the top line had been removed. The "clear as mud" comment did sort of sum it up in that it is not fully sorted yet till it is crystal clear.

If the minimum requirements from last year were good then why not just copy them. It seems the wheel has to be re-invented ever time there is a GTG.

Just state what people have to have as the minimum then anything else is just up to the individuals if they want to go above and beyond.

Hi Vaughan, it's not a wheel. Wheels are round they won't change :-)
This is a gtg, it will change as its in a different state, on different terrain & run by different people many of them not been to a gtg.
Think of it like a TV or a computer, we don't say to the tech's, why re-invent the TV, do we?
We not copying them because it excludes people with standard prados for no good reason.
Effectively there is no minimum, just a guide & recommendations.

I agree with Vaughan. It's confusing at the moment. The start of the thread talks about required recovery points etc, but then Anthony has said in the last page or so that they're not going to restrict anyone because decisions can't be made about what's safe etc etc. Surely there are things that are a definite mandatory requirement like Fire Extinguisher, Radio, etc etc. These shouldn't be negotiable. If the committee can't decide on something being 'mandatory' like after market recovery points, then don't include it in the minimum requirements list. Instead, have some kind of disclaimer, like 'in the event that your vehicle needs recovering, the GTG committee nor any other attendee guarantees to facilitate an extraction of your vehicle. Recoveries will be judged on an as-needs basis, and help may be dependent on the type of recovery points available on your vehicle, and the recovering vehicle's willingness to snatch off said points'.

I, like some others maybe, don't have officially 'purchased' after market points. I had a good friend laser cut 12mm steel plates at his work as per a DIY recovery point thread on PP. in terms of the disclaimer sentence above, I'm comfortable with my recovery points, and I know anyone accompanying me would snatch off them before the Toyo tie down points.

In short, a clear list of requirements in a simple post. The list isn't negotiable. I don't see why Bullbars etc would be required, so I don't suspect the list will be hard to comply with. Just my 2 cents...

Thanks for the feedback. Will take all that into consideration.
Common sense says most of us have a fire extinguisher in the vehicle.
Also , if we don't then we can think about that & have time to add that, it's a good idea.
But if 35 or 37 out of 40 prads have one, I think we are pretty safe.
Don't see why we need to absolutely force & then need to police it, because its not really required either.
Same if someone had no UHF, they would be ok, but think after reading it as a recommendation everyone will have one. In my wisdom I think everyone on the list at the moment has a uhf already.
It's clearly reccomended, if you want to come without one, I don't have a problem with that.
Who wants to come without a UHF????
LMFAO.
I will lend u a handheld.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

So minimum is
Recov points of sound type
Basic recov gear
AT tyres
Fire extinguisher
1st aid kit
Shovel
Uhf
Compressor & tyre guage

Right?

SIMPLE HEY ? baggs wins!

[baggs71 Inactive member. Find all posts View Profile Close baggs71]

SIMPLE HEY ? baggs wins!

you watch...someone is gunna try and stir this up again.....