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  • Bilstein struts and shocks: Lengths and Valving

    Hey everyone,

    This is quite a long and detailed thread on Bilsteins, so grab a beer or coffee!

    There have been a few minor errors in the Suspension Database with the closed-open lengths and much discussion around the valving of Bilstein struts and shocks (spread across various forum threads and websites), so I thought it would be a good idea to collate all of the information in one thread.

    Lengths and valving for struts and shocks available for the 120/Hilux/150 and FJ are given in the tables below. Lengths and valving figures from Sydney Bilstein have been publicly available on the internet in various places for some time. Quadrant have generously provided lengths and valving for all of their struts and shocks.

    Front struts;



    * indicates the measurement includes the shaft shroud/boot. Shroud/boot cylinder is ca. 8mm in height, and adds ca. 8mm to both the closed and open lengths.

    Rear shocks;



    A480/A481 are Japanese tuned gear, and with shorter rear lengths should be considered as OEM replacements. A480/A481 are sold in the European market as 120/Hilux replacements, and are in the current Bilstein Katalog. A480/A481 were developed prior to 712/713.

    While some will consider a certain range of valving to be “Euro”, “Oz”, “USA” specific and useful only for specific vehicles, it should be noted that there is a wide crossover in use between vehicles. There can also be considerably different vehicle specific valving between Sydney Bilstein and Quadrant, notably on the Hilux front strut, 3385N rebound compared to 2400N rebound. Similarly for rear shocks, 24-217897 and BE5-A713 use quite different valving.

    Many PP users run “USA FJ” spec 5100 Bilstein struts (07-09) on their 120’s. Many FJCC members are now running the D563/1478 “Hilux/80” spec combination on FJ Cruisers. The “Hilux” specific 24-238762 Quadrant strut is used universally across “120/150/FJ/Hilux” by some distributors. You will get very positive feedback about ride quality from many of these users/distributors, from both softly and stiffly valved struts/shocks that are not necessarily vehicle specific.

    Sydney Bilstein regard the 712/713 combination as having the most appropriate “Oz” spec valving for a 120 series Prado. The Hilux specific Quadrant strut 24-238762 (same bushing as 120) has valving very close to the 712, with the Quadrant strut being more suitable for long travel. Rear 120 specific shocks BE5-713 and 24-217897 have distinctly different valving, with the 24-217897 having compression more like an 80 series shock, and over twice the rebound of the BE5-713. Differences in compression can be related to choice of coil rate, eg., 713 is valved with higher compression for a softer spring. Differences in rebound can be related to both coil choice and extra sprung mass, eg., a heavily loaded cargo area.

    It is mentioned in the FJ blue room that the 5100 “USA” spec strut uses a lower compression to give a plush ride over bumps. There are reports of 5100 struts being under damped (front body roll not cycling out) and nose diving under brakes, and in particular body lean around corners. Some users combat this with stiffer coils. The rear 5100 shock has the softest rebound of all rear shocks, and would be unsuitable in our heavier vehicles. There are complaints from American drivers that the rear has noticeable bounce at low/moderate speeds, so it appears in general that the 5100 rear is well under damped. In general, high speed handling on corrugations may be poor with lower compression. Note that the 07-09 valving is quoted for the FJ 5100, based on the shortened 120 chassis which was not released in Australia. Australian model FJ’s use the shortened 150 chassis/IFS, or 2010 model onward 5100 in USA, part number 24-196499, which has higher rebound valving 3195N:920N, uses different lengths, and uses a 150 type bush which will fit the 150 type control arm in the Oz spec FJ.

    5100 series Bilsteins are NOT made in Mexico as alluded to in several PP and FJCC forum threads. They are manufactured by ThyssenKrupp Bilstein-America in Hamilton, Ohio, USA. See here;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYJovKpBjkE

    Bilstein-America typically import German struts/shocks for European vehicles, and make their own range of struts/shocks for American manufactured vehicles.

    The table below compares kerb weights and spring rates between 120/150/FJ/Hilux and 80 series Landcruiser;



    # Kerb weight for a 1997 80 series model is quoted in the table (Redbook). Coil free length can range from 18.5-21” (6.5-9.25 wraps) across the 80 series range. Rates are for 19” 7.875 and 6.1875 wrap coils (1.5 inactive). This closely matches the OEM rates quoted in the ARB catalogue as 160lb/in front, 170lb/in rear.

    150(09-15) runs stiffer coils than 120/Hilux to suppress front end vibrations. VSC is also a contributing factor in the newer design. The stiffer coils for 150(09-15) require more rebound compared to the older design 120/Hilux struts.

    Many 150 drivers run front coils lower than the OEM rate, for example running 120 spec coils. While there is no justification for higher rebound with the lower rate coils, or on the basis of similar kerb weights between 120/150/FJ (similar sprung mass), the effects on VSC and ride dynamics using lower rated coils have not been reported. On this basis, there are many 150/FJ drivers who run high rebound/low coil rate front ends. Many also run a lower rebound 120 spec strut with lower rate coils, and report great ride quality.

    The range of valving forces for 120/150/FJ/Hilux struts/shocks available and being used in Australia are;

    Front struts;



    Rear shocks;



    The Hilux specific strut is valved to a significantly higher rebound by Sydney Bilstein compared to Quadrant. The BE5-A712 is defined as the “Oz” specific strut for a 120 Prado, and the Hilux is a lighter vehicle than the 120 and uses similar spring rates/strut cap/geometry to the 120 throughout its 2005-15 history. As such, the Hilux strut valving would be expected to be similar to the 120 Prado. The Quadrant Hilux strut is valved 985N lower in rebound. Higher rebound may be more suitable to heavy front end vehicles with bar, winch, secondary battery etc., and the D563 may be suited more to a front end heavy Hilux that also utilises stiffer coils than OEM. Note also that the D563 runs a 120 bush, so may require shims in a 150/FJ strut bush cradle (I know many installers will simply tighten up to spec torque for a 120 bush in a 150/FJ cradle, but you will bend/flex the plates doing this).

    There is also a large valving difference between the 120 specific rear shocks BE5-713 and 24-217897. Similarly for the 150 specific rear shock BE5-A715, it uses distinctly different valving to BE5-A713 for the 120, yet the 120 and 150 rear weight, rear oem spring rates and rear suspension geometry are nearly identical. The rear 715 with high compression may be more suited to a softer rear coil. The 80 series rear is similar in weight and OEM spring rate but with taller coils (higher diff/floorpan separation on Landcruisers) compared to the Prado. After market 80 series coils are typically 220lb/in or higher, so rebound and compression similar to 80 series valving should not be unexpected for a rear Prado shock. 80 series rear shocks will work well in Prados with stiff rear coils.

    Anyone familiar with valving is likely aware of the typical 3:1 rebound:compression based upon an unsprung:sprung mass ratio being near 3:1 (a typical car). As you can see from the tables, typical valving for our Prados is more like 1:1 to 1.5:1 on the IFS, and up to 7.2:1 for the rear. These ratios are determined based on practical road handling dynamics and countless hours of road testing. Your choice of coil rates can change these dynamics considerably. The valving/coil rate combination is a big factor in vehicle handling. Note also that modern monotube Bilsteins typically utilise digressive (non-linear) valving.

    For the potential Bilstein purchaser, there are only two Bilstein importers in Australia, Quadrant in Melbourne and Sydney Bilstein. There are hundreds of Bilstein distributors throughout Australia that use these two companies. There is a single distributor who sells rebranded Bilstein struts/shocks, CalOffroad. CalOffroad struts/shocks were originally tuned by Sydney Bilstein to a generic constant valving that covers 120/150/FJ/Hilux, and the part numbers are specific to CalOffroad only. Lengths for CalOffroad struts/shocks are available in the PP database, valving is undisclosed. Valving for CalOffroad is easily guessed out by simply averaging between A712 and D563, so it is likely near 2875N:2180N for the front strut (24-218528). CalOffroad struts also use a 120 bush. Every other distributor in Australia is typically selling one of the struts/shocks listed in the tables above.

    While there is a wide variation in rebound and compression forces, all struts and shocks (excepting Hilux which is eye-eye) are interchangeable between 120/150/FJ/Hilux. Both Quadrant and Sydney Bilstein can also sell you a strut/shock with custom valving if you so choose it.

    Regarding durability, several PP users have noted that 712 struts have lost their damping over time, leading to significant front end bouncing which takes several cycles to dampen. With the monotube design of the Bilsteins, the cause of damping loss is most likely due to shaft piston impact on the lower floating/dividing piston (strut bottoming out), leading to the lower piston dislodging and allowing nitrogen to mix with the oil causing damping loss. My opinion is that the reported failures on the 712 strut are minimal, and we are reading about them because the 712/713 combination is likely the most widely sold and used in Australia. I know several users who report up to 80,000km on the 712/713 combination across the roughest conditions in Australia, which is a great achievement. Monotube Bilsteins really can take a beating, and with the floating piston design should theoretically not lose their valving over their lifetime of use.

    I have not read any reports on failures of Quadrant struts/shocks for 120/150/FJ, however if any have experienced problems then this is the thread to detail them. I can add that one Quadrant distributor has installed a substantial amount of the long travel 24-238762/24-217897 combination in 120/150/FJ with excellent feedback and no reported failures/returns.

    When selecting strut lengths, keep in mind the CV bind limits, ca. 585-590mm on 120/150 and FJ. Most will run maximum strut open length typically less than ball joint bind at ca. 575mm, historically a conservative 570mm on the 120, 575mm (note that 24-173032 can be lengthened to 575mm) on 150/FJ etc. Coil seat positions can shift by ca. 18mm between (120/150/FJ) and Hilux struts, and different coils may be required to achieve the desired ride height on a Hilux. FJ/150 struts use a larger bush with a longer crush tube that will require shortening to fit a 120/Hilux strut cradle.

    For rear shocks, closed geometry is limited to axle-bumpstop bind at 405mm for 120/150/FJ, and swaybar bind at 615mm open length. Running a shock with open length longer than 615mm will require longer swaybar links (if you keep it in). 370mm closed length accounts for only 70% bumpstop compression, so some may choose to space rear bumpstops down by ca. 10-15mm to avoid potential shock bump out. Rear 150 specific shocks with a longer pin require a 20mm spacer to fit 120/FJ, increasing closed-open lengths by 20mm. The rear 150 bushes are substantially different to the 120.

    All strut/shock lengths have been determined from Bilstein technical drawings (where available) and/or hand measurements. Lengths are measured from centre of bush ring eye to shaft flange (bottom of lower washer). The shroud/boot cylinder is typically ca. 8mm in height, and increases closed and open lengths by ca. 8mm. For example, the D563 Hilux strut is 425-567mm (ring eye center to flange), which becomes 433-575mm when the shroud is included. Valving forces and velocities have typically been measured on a Bilstein shock dyno.

    Lastly I thought I’d again mention the combinations which are being used to give everyone an idea of what they can use. The 712/713 combo has been in use for a long time on 120 Prados, however, the shorter 713 rear shock is not suitable in lifted vehicles and will give minimal droop and flex in the rear. 5100 and 5160 series Bilsteins are also a common strut being used in Prados, with very nice open lengths that suit the CV bind on the 120 series, however, they are underdamped. The 24-238762/24-217897 is a good combination for the 120 series, giving maximum travel on the front IFS, and travel in the rear that is similar to an 80 series shock (note a 10mm spacer in the rear may be necessary to avoid binding the 24-217897 pin on the floorpan). 150 drivers can also use 24-238762/24-217897, and re-use the OEM bushes on the rear shock. 150 drivers can also use a 712/715 combo, which can be spaced to give very good articulation front and rear. Another 150 specific combination is 24-173032/24-217897. With the longer CV bind and higher rebound on the 150 IFS, 150 drivers can also use a D563/B46-1478LT combination, which is also very popular with FJ drivers. Both the 24-173032 and D563 possess higher rebound which will suit the higher rate front 150 coils. The 24-238762/24-217897 combination is used by some distributors on 120/150/FJ and Hilux (replace with B46-1036LT for rear Hilux shock). The higher coil seat position on Hilux struts may dictate the use of different coils to get the desired front end ride height.

    As you can see, there’s a wide variety of possible combinations in terms of lengths and valving. It is possible to run a higher rebound front strut on a 120 Prado (as many already do with the generic CalOffroad strut in 120 and Hilux) matched with a higher spring rate, eg. at least 660lb/in or higher. The reported minimisation of front end vibration on 150 Prados with stiffer coils suggests running a stiffer coil than OEM on the 120, in combination with a higher rebound strut. However, running a higher rebound can lead to larger forces on the strut connections, as such for 120/Hilux it may be appropriate to use the 150 specific strut body which utilises a larger bottom bush (skimmed down to fit the 120 bush cradle).

    I would also like to add that it is possible to add a threaded fully height adjustable coil seat to any of the Bilstein 2” diameter struts. This gives you complete control over your front ride height. Toytec in the USA have been doing this for some time already, but it is possible to purchase these threaded seats here in Australia.

    Finally, please note that I have no affiliation with either Sydney Bilstein or Quadrant. Both companies have been very helpful in assisting me with my many Bilstein related questions.
    My original intention in writing this thread was because I wanted to understand the difference between “Euro”, “USA” and “Oz” spec valving, but as you can now appreciate after reading this thread, there is no strict guideline in determining what really is “Oz” specific valving. Both Europeans and Japanese are driving Prados with the same Bilstein valving as us. American valving can be defined on the basis of lower compression which is unsuitable on corrugations.

    Many thanks to Richard and Jim at Quadrant for providing valving figures and answers to my many questions. John at Zordos Suspension provided a stack of OEM coils and struts for me to measure, always good to spend some time in John’s garage. Chris from FJCC has also been great motivation to understand the IFS of the FJ.

    All the best to everyone with your monotube Bilstein choices, they are a fantastic piece of technology engineered to precision standards, and I hope you all get many km’s out of them!

    Mark
    Whitey
    Shockie Maker of the Month Award
    Last edited by Whitey; 20-09-2017, 01:38 PM. Reason: Updated table
    2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

  • #2
    Great thread Mark, thanks for your time and dedication in researching and documenting the data!

    Have read through once, will be going through again to finish my notes before tackling my suspension over the long weekend.

    Comment


    • #3
      Great info Mark!

      One more piece of the puzzle is there has been other outfits offering custom valving like CalOffroad. When I bought my A712/A713 combo, they were sourced from Auto-Craft. Darren at Auto-Craft specified his own valving and said he bought directly from Germany in batches, but he wasn't happy to share his valving recipe. As you know, mine are shot. I don't recall any bottoming out of the fronts, but if that is what kills a billie, then I guess that must have happened.

      Darren used to be a member here, but due to some altercation (unknown to me) he no longer posts. Don't know if he still sells the Auto-Craft kit.
      2008 D4D M6 GXL [MT ATZ-P3][Whitey's Ironman 45710FE/45682FE+KTFR101H/Dob487][extended Roadsafe links][Polyairs][DBA T3/T2][amts diffdrop & recovery points][Tin175's stone guards][Bushskins BashPlate][ARB Sahara][IPF 900s][Snorkel][WindCheetah][MaxTrax][IC-440][Parrot Asteroid][ARB Fridge][Lifestyle 2nd Row Fridge Mount][ARB Compressor][Thumper][SandGrabbers][Cargo Barrier][Tigerz Awning][MCC Rear Bar]

      Comment


      • #4
        Hey photoprado,

        To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a custom valved Bilstein by Auto-Craft. Auto-Craft sell 712/713 that have been valved by Sydney Bilstein. There are many Bilstein distributors who sell 712/713, and they are transported directly from Sydney.

        I mentioned in the thread the "generic" valving that CalOffroad offer, which is likely close to the average between A712 and D563.

        As far as I'm concerned, there are no puzzles with the valving. The only people doing valving on Bilsteins in Australia are Jim at Quadrant and Paul at Sydney Bilstein. Anything else you hear is folklore and fairy tales.

        Best

        Mark
        2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

        Comment


        • #5
          I have been helping Mark collate this information over the past few months (im active on fjcc.com.au as i have an FJ).

          Based on conversations i have had with Sydney Bilstein i support whiteys claim above re custom valving.

          One of my phone conversations with Sydney Bilstein was specifically to clear up custom valving rumors. I asked them if they sold revalved shocks for FJ/Prados and they told me they import CalOffroad shocks and custom tune them for him. I then asked specifically if Autocraft has his own special valving, and the comment i got was that they cannot remember (in 10 years) Autocraft ever purchasing a custom vavled shock through them. They said they supply Autocraft standard A712 and A713 shocks.

          I ask anyone with concerns about these comments to check with Sydney Bilstein directly.

          Comment


          • #6
            You could be right, but as I remember it, Darren said he bought directly from Blistein in Germany, not from local distributors. Batches of 50 to get his own part numbers.

            Maybe these images with part details would help, can you check?

            These are from 2008. The distribution may have changed since then.



            photoprado
            Avid PP Poster!
            Last edited by photoprado; 17-04-2016, 10:07 PM.
            2008 D4D M6 GXL [MT ATZ-P3][Whitey's Ironman 45710FE/45682FE+KTFR101H/Dob487][extended Roadsafe links][Polyairs][DBA T3/T2][amts diffdrop & recovery points][Tin175's stone guards][Bushskins BashPlate][ARB Sahara][IPF 900s][Snorkel][WindCheetah][MaxTrax][IC-440][Parrot Asteroid][ARB Fridge][Lifestyle 2nd Row Fridge Mount][ARB Compressor][Thumper][SandGrabbers][Cargo Barrier][Tigerz Awning][MCC Rear Bar]

            Comment


            • #7
              Does anyone know if the Bilstein and Stock 120 lower show bush are the same diameter in OD?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ejukated View Post
                Does anyone know if the Bilstein and Stock 120 lower show bush are the same diameter in OD?
                Hey,

                It depends on exactly which Bilstein you're referring to, the FJ/150 spec struts have a longer crush tube than the 120, see here;

                http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...rut-dimensions

                A 150/FJ spec Bilstein has the same crush tube length as OEM 150/FJ, same for a 120/Hilux spec Bilstein having same length crush tube as OEM 120/Hilux.

                Hope this helps!

                Best

                Mark
                2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Whitey View Post
                  Hey,

                  It depends on exactly which Bilstein you're referring to, the FJ/150 spec struts have a longer crush tube than the 120, see here;

                  http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...rut-dimensions

                  A 150/FJ spec Bilstein has the same crush tube length as OEM 150/FJ, same for a 120/Hilux spec Bilstein having same length crush tube as OEM 120/Hilux.

                  Hope this helps!

                  Best

                  Mark
                  Sorry I should clarify, the OD of the bush that goes into the lower shock eye, so the dim I'm after is the overall bushing OD (or the ID of the shock eye).

                  Basically, looking to see if Superpro SPF3591K will fit into a Bilstein shock

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This dimension

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ejukated View Post
                      Sorry I should clarify, the OD of the bush that goes into the lower shock eye, so the dim I'm after is the overall bushing OD (or the ID of the shock eye).

                      Basically, looking to see if Superpro SPF3591K will fit into a Bilstein shock
                      Hi mate, Yes they are the same diameter (35mm) and the Superpro SPF3591K bush does fit into the Bilstein BE5-A712, BUT mine only lasted about 6 weeks before looking like this!! They got so bad that the car became dangerous to drive as it was bouncing all over the place. We were down in Tasmania over christmas and as it was only a day or so before Christmas we were stuck for options, I bit the bullet and bought OME (CRAPPY) from the local ARB dealer and fitted them in our caravan park. (not happy Jan!)

                      Click image for larger version

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                      On return home I contacted Superpro who have been fantastic, They have a new experimental bush they are working on which they gave me to try instead, it's a totally different material and much stronger. I have refitted the Bilsteins which are soooo much better than the OME. The OME 9000 sport were very harsh and gave a rough uncomfortable ride.
                      [FONT=Comic Sans MS][B][COLOR=#000080][COLOR=#FF0000]2003 V6 Parado Grande.[/COLOR][/COLOR]
                      Custom rear drawer system, Custom 6mm alloy bash plate and Custom rear steel bar, Dual battery and ARB duel compressor. SPC upper control arms. So far....[COLOR=#0000CD]See my build[/COLOR] [URL]http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?31855-Kevdebbi-s-120-V6-Grande[/URL][/B][/FONT]
                      [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        ah ok, thanks for that. Maybe I'll hold off till they release the experimental one.. Or maybe I should email SuperPro to see if they want another tester haha.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Somebody once said that the bushes suffer prematurely if they are tightened without the weight of the car on the suspension?
                          Dave
                          Views expressed are mine alone and are not intended to compromise the integrity of my employer nor offend those who may read such views.
                          Bugger Bali, get out and see Australia before we sell it all to China.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ejukated View Post
                            Does anyone know if the Bilstein and Stock 120 lower show bush are the same diameter in OD?
                            Hey again,

                            I know it isn't hugely important in the scheme of things, but just to be a bit more specific, I get 40.01mm for the 120 oem bush outer diameter, and around 38.15mm for the 712.

                            That figure above of 35mm from kevdebbi seems a bit low to me?

                            In any case, it seems like the Superpro bushes can get flogged easily. I agree with Dave, I see fitters tighten up bushes with the car in the air and wheels at full droop all the time.

                            There is some opinion out there that suggests running rubber in the lower arms and bottom strut bushes, and running poly bushes in the upper arms. This apparently gives a better ride.

                            Best

                            Mark
                            2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Whitey View Post
                              Hey again,

                              I know it isn't hugely important in the scheme of things, but just to be a bit more specific, I get 40.01mm for the 120 oem bush outer diameter, and around 38.15mm for the 712.

                              That figure above of 35mm from kevdebbi seems a bit low to me?

                              In any case, it seems like the Superpro bushes can get flogged easily. I agree with Dave, I see fitters tighten up bushes with the car in the air and wheels at full droop all the time.

                              There is some opinion out there that suggests running rubber in the lower arms and bottom strut bushes, and running poly bushes in the upper arms. This apparently gives a better ride.

                              Best

                              Mark
                              Thanks for that, by my estimation my Bilsteins are about 40mm diameter, I can only measure it insitu at this stage tho. It is easy to measure it as 35mm if you don't look carefully for the chamfer.

                              Comment

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