Bilstein struts and shocks: Lengths and Valving

[ejukated Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ejukated]

Hi mate, Yes they are the same diameter (35mm) and the Superpro SPF3591K bush does fit into the Bilstein BE5-A712, BUT mine only lasted about 6 weeks before looking like this!! They got so bad that the car became dangerous to drive as it was bouncing all over the place. We were down in Tasmania over christmas and as it was only a day or so before Christmas we were stuck for options, I bit the bullet and bought OME (CRAPPY) from the local ARB dealer and fitted them in our caravan park. (not happy Jan!)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]23155[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]23156[/ATTACH]

On return home I contacted Superpro who have been fantastic, They have a new experimental bush they are working on which they gave me to try instead, it's a totally different material and much stronger. I have refitted the Bilsteins which are soooo much better than the OME. The OME 9000 sport were very harsh and gave a rough uncomfortable ride.

Thanks mate, I think I will stick it out with the slightly flogged Bilstein bushes till they work out the new design. Hows it going for you? Any idea when it might be out as a catalogue part?

P.S. sorry for the off topic.

[kevdebbi Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close kevdebbi]

Hey again,

I know it isn't hugely important in the scheme of things, but just to be a bit more specific, I get 40.01mm for the 120 oem bush outer diameter, and around 38.15mm for the 712.

That figure above of 35mm from kevdebbi seems a bit low to me?

In any case, it seems like the Superpro bushes can get flogged easily. I agree with Dave, I see fitters tighten up bushes with the car in the air and wheels at full droop all the time.

There is some opinion out there that suggests running rubber in the lower arms and bottom strut bushes, and running poly bushes in the upper arms. This apparently gives a better ride.

Best

Mark

Sorry my bad,

I measured the bushes in the OME shock sitting on my workbench, I took them out on the weekend and incorrectly assumed they were the same size. I just compared them to the Bilsteins and they are approximately 5mm smaller. I couldn't accurately measured the Bilsteins as they are installed, but they are around 38-40mm diameter as Mark pointed out. I have previously installed genuine Toyota bushes into the Bilsteins and they fitted fine so not sure how much size difference there was.

As you can probably tell I have not had much luck with the bushes in my shocks, The original Bilstein bushes lasted about 18 months, I replaced these with genuine Toyota bushes which also lasted about 18 months, it was these bushes I replaced with the Superpro.

Yes I am well aware of the importance of not tightening the suspension till the vehicle has been lowered and sitting in a natural state. I normally drive the car back and forward a few times to help everything settle correctly, before tightening the bolts. I am confident the new Superpro bushes will be fine, they said they are trialing the same size bush in an armored 200 series cruiser which has had no problems despite the extra weight. Previously it required new bushed every few months.

[MidLifeCrisis Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close MidLifeCrisis]

Great info Mark!

One more piece of the puzzle is there has been other outfits offering custom valving like CalOffroad. When I bought my A712/A713 combo, they were sourced from Auto-Craft. Darren at Auto-Craft specified his own valving and said he bought directly from Germany in batches, but he wasn't happy to share his valving recipe. As you know, mine are shot. I don't recall any bottoming out of the fronts, but if that is what kills a billie, then I guess that must have happened.

Darren used to be a member here, but due to some altercation (unknown to me) he no longer posts. Don't know if he still sells the Auto-Craft kit.

Darren haunts the FJ Cruiser forums now. His rep in SA was Total Traction Tyres but that changed hands a few years ago. I don't believe he valved anything, poorest performing shockies I have ever wasted money on. On point, his rock sliders needed modification to sit properly on the Prado too. Personally I won't be buying anything further from Autcraft.

As for Bilsteins, well, I have two broken ones that severed at the bottom knuckle. I have decided to upgrade to Remote reservoir fully adjustable Kings. The Bilsteins did 80k, not impressive by any standard. as for the rock sliders, well AJ120 came to the rescue by cutting of the mounts and rejigging with his system.

[photoprado Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close photoprado]

Glad I don't have a FJ then!

[drwormy Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drwormy]

Errr....emmm.... these look pretty much like Sydney Shock Absorbers (aka Sydney Bilstien) part number. The -M0 has gone to -M2 now (same as for the Hilux shocks). If you called them they would be able to confirm.

As for direct import from Germany, our discussions with Bilstein Sydney and Melbourne said that doesn't really happen. Re valving a batch of 50 direct from Germany - they would get a new part number, be drawn up etc. Speaking with Jim from Bilstein Melbourne, he spent 1-2 months tuning the Prado 150 strut. Driving the car, trialing different valving, taking it to the Desert for a real world trial. Once they settled on a valve shim stack, they sent to Germany for comment, and would then to need to make some changes due to the manufacturing processes, so trial that again. The shock was then drawn up in CAD, approved, before manufacture. Pretty much the same as any standard prototype and manufacture process. To do that, an adjustable press, oil attachment, pressure attachment, sealing jigs are required.

I watched as Jim extended my Bilstein struts. Ive also been to Autocrafts workshop (had LPG installed 'through' them). I didnt see any of that gear there. When a mate of mine needed to service his rear Bilstein shocks, Darren told him they would need to be sent back to the USA for rebuilding. In the end he bought some new ICONs.

As for what Autocraft does and doesnt do. I guess in the end really he is the only one who knows the truth. Certainly the accumulated evidence points in another direction to his claims. You are not, and certainly will not be, the only one "mislead" by Autocraft.

He has managed to get himself banned from the FJ forums also. He has a worse reputation there than here. Forums can be good for that. People sharing opinions is one thing. People sharing their experinces, that start to match others experinces... well that is another.

You could be right, but as I remember it, Darren said he bought directly from Blistein in Germany, not from local distributors. Batches of 50 to get his own part numbers.

Maybe these images with part details would help, can you check?

These are from 2008. The distribution may have changed since then.

[drwormy Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drwormy]

He is banned from FJCC also. His FJ front underbody protection also had the wide issue that the mounting holes didnt line up. He would claim to customers that this was the first he had heard of it... until multiple people on the forum posted about the same issue, and having been fed the same comment.

You may be interested in the P150 strut, 24-173032. Much beefed up. Photo shows it compared to my old CalOffroad strut.

Darren haunts the FJ Cruiser forums now. His rep in SA was Total Traction Tyres but that changed hands a few years ago. I don't believe he valved anything, poorest performing shockies I have ever wasted money on. On point, his rock sliders needed modification to sit properly on the Prado too. Personally I won't be buying anything further from Autcraft.

As for Bilsteins, well, I have two broken ones that severed at the bottom knuckle. I have decided to upgrade to Remote reservoir fully adjustable Kings. The Bilsteins did 80k, not impressive by any standard. as for the rock sliders, well AJ120 came to the rescue by cutting of the mounts and rejigging with his system.

[photoprado Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close photoprado]

Always interested to see a shock

Like MLC, I'm switching away from Billies. Just don't have the bank balance to follow him to Kings. Dobinsons MRR for me.

[photoprado Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close photoprado]

You may be interested in the P150 strut, 24-173032. Much beefed up. Photo shows it compared to my old CalOffroad strut.

Image not showing, here it is:

[kevdebbi Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close kevdebbi]

Hey photoprado,

To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a custom valved Bilstein by Auto-Craft. Auto-Craft sell 712/713 that have been valved by Sydney Bilstein. There are many Bilstein distributors who sell 712/713, and they are transported directly from Sydney.

I mentioned in the thread the "generic" valving that CalOffroad offer, which is likely close to the average between A712 and D563.

As far as I'm concerned, there are no puzzles with the valving. The only people doing valving on Bilsteins in Australia are Jim at Quadrant and Paul at Sydney Bilstein. Anything else you hear is folklore and fairy tales.

Best

Mark

Hi Mark,

Fulcrum Suspension Moorooka can also rebuild and revalve the Bilstein shocks. They are currently tweaking the valving in my rear shocks, as I have always thought they were a little soft. My car has a rear bar and draws and is probably a bit heavier in the back end than most, also being the Grande with airbags this may change things a little. I have asked for the valving specs so am happy to share them here and feedback on their performance. They have already redone the front for me, just gave them the once over and changed the oil and gas. I refitted these about two weeks ago replacing the OME 9000, huge difference in ride comfort, the OME was very harsh, the Bilstein are so much smoother.

Kevin

[Whitey Shockie Maker of the Month Award Find all posts View Profile Close Whitey]

Hi Mark,

Fulcrum Suspension Moorooka can also rebuild and revalve the Bilstein shocks. They are currently tweaking the valving in my rear shocks, as I have always thought they were a little soft. My car has a rear bar and draws and is probably a bit heavier in the back end than most, also being the Grande with airbags this may change things a little. I have asked for the valving specs so am happy to share them here and feedback on their performance. They have already redone the front for me, just gave them the once over and changed the oil and gas. I refitted these about two weeks ago replacing the OME 9000, huge difference in ride comfort, the OME was very harsh, the Bilstein are so much smoother.

Kevin

Hey Kevin,

Fulcrum Moorooka are 2min around the corner from me, and I've been in and out of there a lot, but I wasn't aware of any shock dyno or rebuilding facilities? Are you certain they are doing it there and not outsourcing the job? If they are doing it themselves, good to know!

With your rear steel bar, it is a pain to get the rear suspension correct (particularly vehicle pitch), but in your case you should be running a high rebound low compression shock with stiff coils. The 24-217897 from Quadrant is ideal in this sense, also with nice open length. With your Grande you're of course limited to airbags, but you may want to consider swapping to coils later, which will improve things with that heavy rear bar.

Which Bilstein rear shock are you getting adjusted by Fulcrum? I'd be very interested to know their valving figures.

Which front struts are you running?

Best

Mark

[kevdebbi Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close kevdebbi]

Hi Mark,

my fronts are A712-m1, the rear B46-1478 TYP 13/23 purchased from Climax suspension in Thornton NSW. Fulcrum have two stores in the Moorooka area, Yeerongpilly which is their standard retail store and 28/36 Evesham St, Moorooka, (07) 3892 9000) their R&D workshop that does the rebuilds. They do have both shock dyno and rebuild facilities in house.

The front struts are standard only the rears are being re-valved, if I can get the values I am happy to share them.

[Whitey Shockie Maker of the Month Award Find all posts View Profile Close Whitey]

Hi Mark,

my fronts are A712-m1, the rear B46-1478 TYP 13/23 purchased from Climax suspension in Thornton NSW. Fulcrum have two stores in the Moorooka area, Yeerongpilly which is their standard retail store and 28/36 Evesham St, Moorooka, (07) 3892 9000) their R&D workshop that does the rebuilds. They do have both shock dyno and rebuild facilities in hose.

The front struts are standard only the rears are being re-valved, if I can get the values I am happy to share them.

Hey,

The 1478 valving is in the table above, 3865N:540N. This is already good valving for a heavily loaded rear with stiff coils, so I will be very interested to see the valving changes that Fulcrum make.

I suspect your Grande airbags are the issue with the rear end, and it may mean higher compression to cope with the softer airbag equivalent spring rate.

Keep me posted!

Best

Mark

[Whitey Shockie Maker of the Month Award Find all posts View Profile Close Whitey]

As for Bilsteins, well, I have two broken ones that severed at the bottom knuckle. I have decided to upgrade to Remote reservoir fully adjustable Kings. The Bilsteins did 80k, not impressive by any standard. as for the rock sliders, well AJ120 came to the rescue by cutting of the mounts and rejigging with his system.

Hey MLC,

Do you have any photos of the broken Bilsteins you could post up? Which part numbers are they? I think 80,000km on any set of after market shocks is pretty decent. By that many km's, anything will need rebuilding.

Good call on the Kings. If I had the coin I'd be trying them! Just one thing to be aware of, the Kings are very over engineered internally, so everything is bigger than usual, and the closed lengths tend to be longer for OEM struts/shocks. The last time I checked the front King struts were 17.309-22.25", or 439.6-565.1mm. That 440mm is a bit over the 420mm closed on the OEM Prado shock, but still well short of the bumpstop contact at around 470mm on the 120 IFS.

Similarly, the rear shocks from Kings will be 15.872-24.338" or 403.1-618.2mm. Axle-bumpstop contact for the 120 rear geometry is 405mm, so you will definitely need to space your rear bumpstops down to avoid bumping out that expensive King shock!

King may have changed a bit by now with the OEM lengths, I'd be interested to hear how you go with them, and post up a few piks!

Best

Mark

[drwormy Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drwormy]

Hi Mark,

I made some more inquiries regarding the A480/481 shocks, and the Japanese connection might not be the final story. Here is what i received:

"I spoke with Bilstein (sic Germany) last night and have the following information.

BE5-A480/BE5-A481 was developed in Germany by Bilstein engineers for standard replacement of the original shocks with original springs. This part is catalogued by Bilstein."

This makes a lot of sence now, given the lengths (of particularly) the A481 are not suitable for lift, and the valvings were tuned for OEM springs. What does have me complexed though is that the A712 appears a carbon copy (with different part number) for the A480, and the A713 has the same valving, but slightly longer than the A481. I guess in the front the aftermarket lifted springs most are fitting have similar stiffness to factory (except the P150 perhaps) so the valvings would be OK.

But in the rear, to get better handling and load carrying capacity stiffer springs that OEM are normally fitted. My understanding (as pronounced by many suspension 'gurus' i know) says for heavier loads a stiffer spring is neccessary, and so the compression damping on the shock should be reduced (to retain a comfortable ride) but the rebound damping needs to be increased to handle the extra force (energy) of heavier load / spring combination.... to stop it bouncing. Decreased compression and increased rebound damping seems to be the general trend for all the other listed Bilstein P120/150/FJ rear shocks, as with others. For example, the Australian developed and engineered Durashocks have the specifications:

25.T5001: Open 615mm …………. Closed 376mm …………………. 3300 / 600 @0.5m/s
25.T5036: Open 575mm …………. Closed 355mm …………………. 3000 / 1150 @0.5m/s

I dont have A481/A713, but i gather many people do run them. I guess the proof of the pudding is in the ride, and if people are happy with it then thats the main point. Just not sure how or why a shock effectively valved for OEM (soft) springs in European conditions, that also seems to go against the grain of damped harmonic motion theory and best practice became to be known as "Oz Spec", and more suitable to lifted/heavy vehicles in our conditions here.

What am i missing? Can someone enlighten me?

[Whitey Shockie Maker of the Month Award Find all posts View Profile Close Whitey]

Hi Mark,

I made some more inquiries regarding the A480/481 shocks, and the Japanese connection might not be the final story. Here is what i received:

"I spoke with Bilstein (sic Germany) last night and have the following information.

BE5-A480/BE5-A481 was developed in Germany by Bilstein engineers for standard replacement of the original shocks with original springs. This part is catalogued by Bilstein."

This makes a lot of sence now, given the lengths (of particularly) the A481 are not suitable for lift, and the valvings were tuned for OEM springs. What does have me complexed though is that the A712 appears a carbon copy (with different part number) for the A480, and the A713 has the same valving, but slightly longer than the A481. I guess in the front the aftermarket lifted springs most are fitting have similar stiffness to factory (except the P150 perhaps) so the valvings would be OK.

But in the rear, to get better handling and load carrying capacity stiffer springs that OEM are normally fitted. My understanding (as pronounced by many suspension 'gurus' i know) says for heavier loads a stiffer spring is neccessary, and so the compression damping on the shock should be reduced (to retain a comfortable ride) but the rebound damping needs to be increased to handle the extra force (energy) of heavier load / spring combination.... to stop it bouncing. Decreased compression and increased rebound damping seems to be the general trend for all the other listed Bilstein P120/150/FJ rear shocks, as with others. For example, the Australian developed and engineered Durashocks have the specifications:

25.T5001: Open 615mm …………. Closed 376mm …………………. 3300 / 600 @0.5m/s
25.T5036: Open 575mm …………. Closed 355mm …………………. 3000 / 1150 @0.5m/s

I dont have A481/A713, but i gather many people do run them. I guess the proof of the pudding is in the ride, and if people are happy with it then thats the main point. Just not sure how or why a shock effectively valved for OEM (soft) springs in European conditions, that also seems to go against the grain of damped harmonic motion theory and best practice became to be known as "Oz Spec", and more suitable to lifted/heavy vehicles in our conditions here.

What am i missing? Can someone enlighten me?

Hey,

Interesting stuff, and what I'm reading from the 480/481 = 712/713 connection is that there were never any struts/shocks valved for the 120 by Sydney Bilstein, and there is no such thing as "Oz" spec valving.

The 712/713 combo should rightly be referred to as "Prado OEM factory geometry" spec struts/shocks.

The use of the rear 713 shock in lifted geometry is known to give minimal droop, eg., 50mm droop at 60mm lift. I know some distributors who refuse to use it. We can also see that the 713 valving is not optimal for a heavily loaded rear.

In this respect it would be nice to know the original OEM valving for the 120.

As far as the 712 valving goes, I think it is fine, as most after market coils are close to OEM coil rates, eg., 586lb/in for a typical Dobinson coil compared to 605lb/in for OEM.

I think the only issue with front strut valving is if you want a bit more rebound as you load the front end up with bar/winch/battery etc. However, I know that 150 spec struts can feel "stiff" on the bitumen, so perhaps somewhere in between 120/150 rebound limits and a moderately stiffer coil, eg. 660lb/in may produce the most optimal strut/coil setup for the IFS.

Best

Mark