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  • #31
    Further update. Toyota successfully performed a forced regen. but it took quite some time. Mechanic in Coober Pedy tried to do it but was unsuccessful. The fact that the forced regen finally worked showed that the 5th injector was working BUT they are still working to find out why it it did not regenereate as it should have in what were ideal conditions for a regen. This is a country car so has spent very little time idling around the city. Toyota is attempting to get to the bottom of the cause. More to follow as a solution is found.

    Comment


    • #32
      That's good news for your mate.

      I'm still convinced that the DPF injector just couldn't manage to burn off the amount of particulate that was been generated in that specific circumstance.

      Suggest he gets the DPF checked again at next service and asked for a report on its condition to be provided for future use.
      Cheers
      Micheal.

      2008 GXL D4D Auto. GOING... GOING... GONE
      2015 GXL 1GD Auto. And it begins again...

      Comment


      • #33
        Quite possible but that then raises the question as to whether the design is fit for purpose ie towing well less than maximun weight at 80kph in 4th gear in central Australia where thousands of Prados are used for towing. We await a verdict.

        Comment


        • #34
          Would also speculate that fuel consumption rate exceeded the soot loading of the DPF and burn off system. I see this also in relation to an earlier post under this thread, where the it was reported for a Toyota service centre to adjust the injection rate during a service with a 60% full DPF. As a country we seem to be making now our first real world experience what it means to have a DPF on a Prado/Fortuner/Hilux in harsher working conditions. For this to have resulted in a disabled car in just over 500km is indeed worrisome, still basically on factory original oil, engine with just 5000km as clean as one could have had it. May be only other factor would be some bad fuel in Port Augusta, but then how sensitive is this system? Was a fuel analysis done? If no other reason than the car itself, then what does it mean for the car to work reliably in prolonged 4WD conditions, like boggy sand, high country or mud tracks where fuel consumption rate is also high and no free light running conditions exist. Does it mean one would have to get worried driving up Fraser Island and staying week for a chance to never make it back under own power? If this happens to a brand new car on new injectors, what then when everything gets a gets a bit older and is not so perfect anymore? I read it seems to do a burn every few hundred kilometers almost from new, hard to understand it makes environmental sense.

          Comment


          • #35
            After reading your stories here, I will offer my experience with the 2.8L..
            Prado GXL Manual, purchased October 2015, sold May 2016 with 27,000 k’s on it. The problems below only relate to the engine, rest of vehicle good as previous 3.0L. This was my ninth Toyota Turbo diesel manual.

            My normal driving is 92k’s of rural driving each way each day in mountainous country therefore plenty of running under load. Never used off road.

            Serviced by local Toyota dealer at 2 K, 10k and 20k, but utter refusal to assist with problems, same attitude with Toyota Australia. I spoke with 4 different staff at Toyota but they would not put a supervisor on and just kept directing me to the useless service manager.

            Problems:
            1. Under load engine missed like a petrol engine with a crook spark plug.
            2. Engine took far too long to warm up – only to half normal temperature after 18 klms. (They could not tell me what was correct warm up time/distance even after the advertised 900,000 K's of testing)
            3. DPF cut in almost every day sometimes 3 times in a day with only 30k or less in between.
            4. Fuel economy worse than the 3.0L I had had for 2 years before the 2.8 without a problem.(Both Manuals)

            So, I didn’t have time to take a day’s annual leave every time I wanted Toyota local to check it - I sold it and bought a Jeep SRT, fantastic car, no windows rattling in frames when part open, fuel economy only 2L per 100k worse than Prado on same daily run and a hell of a lot more fun to drive!
            And don’t tell me about the recalls – at least Jeep will fix their problems; Toyota won’t even talk to you, I would still have the Prado if they cared.
            As stated earlier, I don’t use this vehicle off road. (I have a double diff locked 1992 L/C Ute for that).
            I can only hope mine was a dud, and you all have a lot more enjoyment from your Prados.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by D4D Manual View Post
              After reading your stories here, I will offer my experience with the 2.8L..
              Prado GXL Manual, purchased October 2015, sold May 2016 with 27,000 k’s on it. The problems below only relate to the engine, rest of vehicle good as previous 3.0L. This was my ninth Toyota Turbo diesel manual.

              My normal driving is 92k’s of rural driving each way each day in mountainous country therefore plenty of running under load. Never used off road.

              Serviced by local Toyota dealer at 2 K, 10k and 20k, but utter refusal to assist with problems, same attitude with Toyota Australia. I spoke with 4 different staff at Toyota but they would not put a supervisor on and just kept directing me to the useless service manager.

              Problems:
              1. Under load engine missed like a petrol engine with a crook spark plug.
              2. Engine took far too long to warm up – only to half normal temperature after 18 klms. (They could not tell me what was correct warm up time/distance even after the advertised 900,000 K's of testing)
              3. DPF cut in almost every day sometimes 3 times in a day with only 30k or less in between.
              4. Fuel economy worse than the 3.0L I had had for 2 years before the 2.8 without a problem.(Both Manuals)

              So, I didn’t have time to take a day’s annual leave every time I wanted Toyota local to check it - I sold it and bought a Jeep SRT, fantastic car, no windows rattling in frames when part open, fuel economy only 2L per 100k worse than Prado on same daily run and a hell of a lot more fun to drive!
              And don’t tell me about the recalls – at least Jeep will fix their problems; Toyota won’t even talk to you, I would still have the Prado if they cared.
              As stated earlier, I don’t use this vehicle off road. (I have a double diff locked 1992 L/C Ute for that).
              I can only hope mine was a dud, and you all have a lot more enjoyment from your Prados.
              Oh man that sucks sorry to hear that,
              I hope to that yours was a dud or were all screwed
              Arb colour code deluxe bar, safari snorkel, lightforce venom HID's, GME uhf remote face, redarc tow pro, redarc bcdc 1240, pioneer platform, 40" curved light bar, dual battery, 3" SS exhaust, EGR mod, trans cooler upgrade, provent catch can, scangauge 2, diesel care secondary fuel filter, Tin's bash plates and actuator gaurd, 2in Bilstien and kings lift,

              Comment


              • #37
                My economy sucks. High 12s on gentle cruises. Hasn't had its 10k service yet, I'm hoping they can sort it out cause as it is currently it's crap... 2016 auto.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by 5logs View Post
                  My economy sucks. High 12s on gentle cruises. Hasn't had its 10k service yet, I'm hoping they can sort it out cause as it is currently it's crap... 2016 auto.
                  Maybe your DPF is partially blocked. Get them to fully investigate the DPF.
                  2018 150 Series Crystal Pearl Prado VX 2.8l. 2 inch King springs and Bilstein shocks, Airtek TJM snorkel.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by cuda View Post
                    Maybe your DPF is partially blocked. Get them to fully investigate the DPF.
                    It's on my list

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I am the owner of the Prado that is the subject of this thread. I am new to posting on this forum, or for that matter, any forum. I hope my contribution will be useful to others.

                      As previously explained by 404pug, the DPF on our vehicle became 180% blocked after travelling, into a head wind, between Woomera and Coober Pedy with a 2.2 tonne, full sized van, in tow.

                      From the research I have done and the discussions I have had with people within the industry, outside of Toyota, it seems that one of two things has occurred. Either there has been a temporary malfunction of a related component or the car could not cope with the conditions.

                      I have sought advice from the Toyota Technical Support (TTS) however, it seems it is not possible for vehicle owners to communicate directly with them. The support I have had from a number of dealers has been excellent, however, it seems they are hamstrung by not being able to do anything, regarding warranty issues, without the approval of TTS.

                      There are two factors that have come to light that would seem to go some way towards explaining what transpired. The first is that some sources have suggested that the DPF will not regenerate if the throttle opening is above a certain percentage. This makes sense in that, due to the conditions, the throttle percentage would have been relatively high for an extended period of time. The second suggestion is that regeneration will not occur above a certain exhaust gas temperature. I find this difficult to comprehend as my understanding is that the whole active regeneration process revolves around the principal of increasing exhaust gas temperatures by injecting diesel, through the fifth injector, into the exhaust system. I would have though that, given the load on the car and the exhaust gas temperatures you would expect under those conditions, that the DPF should have been regenerating passively without the need for extra diesel being injected through the fifth injector. My understanding is that the active regeneration process is designed for those vehicles used in conditions such that exhaust gas temperatures do not get high enough to burn off the accumulated soot.

                      At this stage it seems unlikely that we are going to get a definitive explanation regarding these issues from Toyota. Given that fuel quality seems to have been ruled out as the problem, I have to assume that I have inadvertently tested the car, in adverse conditions, and it has just not been up to the task. That is disappointing in that all the Jeeps, Ford Rangers etc., pulling larger vans than mine, that overtook me in these same conditions seemed to cope without problems.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Hey all,

                        Given that the problem Boba has experienced has put the Prado into limp mode, is it possible for someone with connections to a Toyota mechanic to get a 2.8 and attempt to replicate the adverse driving conditions?

                        If dpf cycling is occurring over periods of as little as 250km, then maybe a 2.8 hooked up with a 2t van can do a couple of hard runs up and down the Blue Mountains or similar hilly terrain which will get everything hot and get the fuel economy up.

                        Hope it's just a one off irregularity and not something which will become common!

                        Best

                        Mark
                        2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Boba View Post
                          I am the owner of the Prado that is the subject of this thread. I am new to posting on this forum, or for that matter, any forum. I hope my contribution will be useful to others.

                          As previously explained by 404pug, the DPF on our vehicle became 180% blocked after travelling, into a head wind, between Woomera and Coober Pedy with a 2.2 tonne, full sized van, in tow.

                          From the research I have done and the discussions I have had with people within the industry, outside of Toyota, it seems that one of two things has occurred. Either there has been a temporary malfunction of a related component or the car could not cope with the conditions.

                          I have sought advice from the Toyota Technical Support (TTS) however, it seems it is not possible for vehicle owners to communicate directly with them. The support I have had from a number of dealers has been excellent, however, it seems they are hamstrung by not being able to do anything, regarding warranty issues, without the approval of TTS.

                          There are two factors that have come to light that would seem to go some way towards explaining what transpired. The first is that some sources have suggested that the DPF will not regenerate if the throttle opening is above a certain percentage. This makes sense in that, due to the conditions, the throttle percentage would have been relatively high for an extended period of time. The second suggestion is that regeneration will not occur above a certain exhaust gas temperature. I find this difficult to comprehend as my understanding is that the whole active regeneration process revolves around the principal of increasing exhaust gas temperatures by injecting diesel, through the fifth injector, into the exhaust system. I would have though that, given the load on the car and the exhaust gas temperatures you would expect under those conditions, that the DPF should have been regenerating passively without the need for extra diesel being injected through the fifth injector. My understanding is that the active regeneration process is designed for those vehicles used in conditions such that exhaust gas temperatures do not get high enough to burn off the accumulated soot.

                          At this stage it seems unlikely that we are going to get a definitive explanation regarding these issues from Toyota. Given that fuel quality seems to have been ruled out as the problem, I have to assume that I have inadvertently tested the car, in adverse conditions, and it has just not been up to the task. That is disappointing in that all the Jeeps, Ford Rangers etc., pulling larger vans than mine, that overtook me in these same conditions seemed to cope without problems.
                          Why would having the throttle opening above a certain percentage affect the DPF burn? Wouldn't this mean your exhaust would be getting extra hot which would be optimal for soot burn off? This also then brings into question the second point that the regen will not occur once you go over a certain exhaust temp. As you say even without the 5th injector doing its job it should be hot enough to passively regen the DPF. I'm guessing the reason the active regen wouldn't kick in due to high exhaust temps is to protect the exhaust system from being over cooked (adding too much heat with the 5th injector).
                          I think it was coincidence that the DPF system failed and you were towing in poor conditions. Question: how can the DPF be 180% full?
                          2018 150 Series Crystal Pearl Prado VX 2.8l. 2 inch King springs and Bilstein shocks, Airtek TJM snorkel.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Anyone know what the optimum temp is for the soot to be burnt off in the DPF. Whitey I have driven a few hills down in South Western Australia towing a 2T van and was getting EGT of 550 deg. No DPF issues for me. Hope I didn't just jinx myself.

                            Thanks
                            2018 150 Series Crystal Pearl Prado VX 2.8l. 2 inch King springs and Bilstein shocks, Airtek TJM snorkel.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Just found this which may help answer some peoples questions.

                              https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/dpf_regen.php and this explanation

                              There exist two approaches to removing soot from the filter: the first involves an oxidation catalytic converter that converts nitrogen monoxide in the exhaust into nitrogen dioxide. If nitrogen dioxide is passed through the filter, the soot burns at lower temperatures. In some engine operating states – such as when the engine is still cold – this regeneration method does not suffice: In these cases, liquid fuel is added, that combusts with residual oxygen in the exhaust to heat the exhaust and filter. This cleansing method only works at exhaust temperatures in excess of 230 degrees Celsius, however. At lower temperatures, the fuel-exhaust mixture fails to ignite, damaging the catalytic converter. The problem: Exhaust from newer-model truck engines is only 160 to 180 degrees Celsius.
                              Researchers at the Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems ISE in Freiburg, Germany, have come up with a method that reliably regenerates filters even at exhaust temperatures as low as 140 degrees. “We add a synthesis gas consisting of carbon monoxide and hydrogen to the exhaust,“ explains Dr. Thomas Aicher, group manager at ISE. “We introduce this gas mixture at the oxidation catalytic converter – lowering the ignition temperature to 140 degrees Celsius and freeing the filter from soot even at these low exhaust temperatures.“
                              But where does this synthesis gas come from? “We have two ways to generate this gas: One is to heat diesel fuel in the absence of air. This produces hydrogen and carbon. Then, the carbon is burned with the exhaust, creating carbon monoxide. Experts refer to this process as pyrolysis. The other way is to oxidize diesel with a very small amount of air so that the diesel combusts only partially. This is known as partial oxidation,“ explains Robert Szolak, a scientist at ISE. Researchers have already built and successfully tested prototypes for both approaches. The experts have now partnered with an industrial partner to investigate partial oxidation in greater detail.


                              Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2011-10-soot-pa...lters.html#jCp
                              cuda
                              Advanced Member
                              Last edited by cuda; 06-09-2016, 12:18 AM.
                              2018 150 Series Crystal Pearl Prado VX 2.8l. 2 inch King springs and Bilstein shocks, Airtek TJM snorkel.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by cuda View Post
                                Why would having the throttle opening above a certain percentage affect the DPF burn? Wouldn't this mean your exhaust would be getting extra hot which would be optimal for soot burn off? This also then brings into question the second point that the regen will not occur once you go over a certain exhaust temp. As you say even without the 5th injector doing its job it should be hot enough to passively regen the DPF. I'm guessing the reason the active regen wouldn't kick in due to high exhaust temps is to protect the exhaust system from being over cooked (adding too much heat with the 5th injector).
                                I think it was coincidence that the DPF system failed and you were towing in poor conditions. Question: how can the DPF be 180% full?
                                Sorry cuda. The way I expressed the point re the throttle opening may have been a little misleading. What I should have said was that my source reckons that the ECU will not initiate an active regeneration above a certain throttle opening. I am with you in that I would have thought that, the wider the throttle, the more heat being generated and the better the conditions for passive regeneration.


                                Regarding the 180% full; from what I have read, there are pressure sensors at the inlet and outlet of the DPF. The difference in pressure between the inlet and outlet gives a measure of the soot loading within the DPF. At a certain pressure differential the ECU will initiate an active regeneration. Apparently this level is considered as 100%. If the soot load in the DPF continues to build above this level the pressure difference will increase accordingly and give a reading above 100%. I guess the fact that mine got to 180% indicated that the pressure differential within the DPF was nearly double what it should have been.
                                On the 1500km return trip home, after our breakdown, I had dealers check the DPF data twice along the way. The readings were 22% and 28%. The reading when we returned to our local dealer was around 30%. This indicates that the regeneration process, whether it be passive or active, is working under normal towing conditions. I am having the car serviced today so I will ask for another data check and let you know the outcome.

                                Comment

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