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Why the Bilstein BE5-A713 should not be used in lifted Prados

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  • #16
    Originally posted by ryzee View Post
    That's what I was going to use, what do you recommend....efs?
    Hey ryzee,

    It's not clear if you mean you were planning on using the 713 or the D563/1478LT combination mentioned above.

    I don't recommend EFS, if you're looking at twin tubes then you need to look at the biggest bore possible, Ironman Foamcell Pros are awesome. I run custom valved Ironman Pros on the rear of my Prado, and will soon have custom valved struts completed.

    Take a squiz here;

    http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...uts-and-shocks

    ...and here;

    http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...-foamcell-pros

    Best

    Mark
    2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

    Comment


    • #17
      The 713 with king springs is what I was looking at, I was told to stay away from ironman suspension, k read your other posts now, so you like the ironman pro, are you using their springs as well, what do you think about using ironman pro shocks with king HD in front and just king raised in back, I don't have any weight in rear, don't even have a tow bar.
      ryzee
      Junior Member
      Last edited by ryzee; 30-03-2017, 09:28 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ryzee View Post
        The 713 with king springs is what I was looking at, I was told to stay away from ironman suspension.
        Hey ryzee,

        Don't believe every anecdote about suspension that you hear. Every manufacturer has good points and bad, every single one of them.

        After having a dog of a time with the 712/713 combination in the Simpson, I swore off Bilsteins for a very long time. I've seen every single internal component smashed up and jammed inside Bilsteins. Yet here I am running D563 Bilsteins on the front of my Prado again.

        I have also heard the Ironman anecdotes, but it didn't stop me from trying them, and I haven't found anything yet that works better in the rear of a heavy packed up Prado.

        I also get told to stop eating red meat, don't use sugar in my coffee, don't eat butter, but I just can't seem to stop!

        If you do decide that you are set on using the 713's for whatever reason, my advice is not to use them in lifted geometry, and not to use them in a heavy packed up Prado. Much better Bilsteins for the rear of the Prado, 24-217897, B46-1478LT, have a read here;

        http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...hs-and-Valving

        Best

        Mark
        2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Are those other part numbers the billies that are referred to as the b6 offroad shock.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by ryzee View Post
            Are those other part numbers the billies that are referred to as the b6 offroad shock.
            Hey,

            For a 4wd/suv the B6 usually refers to a 4600 series strut or shock, which just means a 46mm piston head.

            http://www.bilsteinus.com/products/t...stein-b6-4600/

            http://info.bilsteinus.com/public_ac...ture16_WEB.pdf

            Bilstein have a very confusing naming convention!

            Best

            Mark
            2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by ryzee View Post
              The 713 with king springs is what I was looking at, I was told to stay away from ironman suspension, k read your other posts now, so you like the ironman pro, are you using their springs as well, what do you think about using ironman pro shocks with king HD in front and just king raised in back, I don't have any weight in rear, don't even have a tow bar.
              Hey again,

              Just saw you edited your post.

              I run a H&R cold rolled 675lb/in coil in the front, and a C59-487 280lb/in Dobinson in the rear, which I had custom made a while back.

              What coils you run will be dictated by the accessories you're running. I'm guessing if you want a HD coil up the front you've got a lot of weight, possibly bar+battery+winch?

              The valving in the D563-M2 struts are very well matched to coils in the 660-700lb/in range. I run a 675lb/in coil, but I only have an empty steel ARB bar up front.

              The D563 has also been used a lot in heavy Prados and Hiluxes with the King HD 800lb/in coil and they drive ok.

              You compromise your front:rear suspension frequency ratio a bit running a high rate front coil, but you'll find the front end will sag a lot without a higher than 700lb/in coil for heavy front ends.

              The 260lb/in KTRR-102 King (R = raised coil) will give you an ok lift in the rear when it's empty. You'll want to make sure to get your ride heights in a good ratio, something like 790/830 for best handling, doubtful the 102 coil will get you 830mm on an empty rear. You could use a packer, or a totally different coil.

              The real issue for the rear will be matching the coil bucket separation to the shock open length. If you plan to run a LT Bilstein (625mm open) or an Ironman Pro (618mm open), you'll want at least 410mm on the bucket separation at full droop/articulation, so have a squiz at the suspension database for your options;

              http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...nsion-Database

              Hope this points you in a good direction!

              Best

              Mark
              2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Ok, now I'm a bit confused. At one stage the 'preferred' supplier of Bilsteins was Autocraft. Are you saying that the 'platinum' kits are not what everyone used to rave about?
                If so, I'm at a quandary as to what to replace my current TJM set up with. It is now getting on and my 120 has just clocked over 400000km and I am looking to replace control arms, suspension, rubbers, etc, etc etc.
                Now I am unsure of where to go with the suspension as I want to maintain the lift.
                Thoughts
                Rob
                2004 White TD GXL manual, Dtronic chip, Piranha dual battery, Sovereign bullbar, IPF spotties, UHF, BFG ATs, Toyota triple roof bars, tinted windows, tow bar, Tekonsha Prodigy brake controller, TX3400 UHF, rear vision camera, Clarke's Country Camper, etc, etc - all sound like an ad for the Trading Post really!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Hey Rob,

                  As you've read above, the "platinum" kit wasn't as shiny as everyone thought!

                  It seems like you're interested in Bilsteins, have a read of the Bilstein options here;

                  http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...hs-and-Valving

                  Much better valving and length options are available!

                  Best

                  Mark
                  2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Oh dear!

                    I just bought a used 120 with a 2 inch lift and the 712/713's fitted. It is paired with Tough Dog TDC-974 coils (front) and TDC-975's in the back.

                    It has been seemingly fine until I noticed a massive amount of sag when loaded and an unweighted rake of a MAXIMUM +5mm in the rear. With this in mind I thought I might replace the rear springs as a relatively cost effective way of getting a 20-30mm rake... and then I was lead here!

                    I am planning on doing the cape in July (FULLY loaded) so this has me pretty worried.

                    Can I get away with these 712/713's with some different rear springs or is it a more serious issue?

                    I don't really have the dollars to throw at a whole new set of shocks and springs...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      What are the actual height measurements?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        From memory they are

                        FL: 790
                        FR: 795
                        RL: 800
                        RR: 800

                        From bottom of rim to wheel arch.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Can you clarify if unloaded means standard vehicle weight at the rear?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Agent Gipps View Post
                            Oh dear!

                            I just bought a used 120 with a 2 inch lift and the 712/713's fitted. It is paired with Tough Dog TDC-974 coils (front) and TDC-975's in the back.

                            It has been seemingly fine until I noticed a massive amount of sag when loaded and an unweighted rake of a MAXIMUM +5mm in the rear. With this in mind I thought I might replace the rear springs as a relatively cost effective way of getting a 20-30mm rake... and then I was lead here!

                            I am planning on doing the cape in July (FULLY loaded) so this has me pretty worried.

                            Can I get away with these 712/713's with some different rear springs or is it a more serious issue?

                            I don't really have the dollars to throw at a whole new set of shocks and springs...
                            Hey,

                            You can get away with the front end staying with the 712/974 combination, but the rear has to go in the bin.

                            The 713 as you've read has nowhere near enough rebound, and is woefully short in lifted geometry, so you'll have poor articulation (when you need it the most up the Cape), and terrible valving.

                            The majority of kinematic control for the Prado comes from the rear shocks, which need both high rebound and high critical damping. Having high critical damping at low velocity is what will stop the Prado pitching and rolling, something it will do horribly if you keep the 713's in there. Keep in mind the critical damping in the rear shocks decreases by around 20% when you add in all the extra weight for camping/touring.

                            Your rear ride height of 800mm is way out, should be around 790 front/830 rear for optimal droop and handling. To get that rear ride height means a taller than 410mm/270lb/in coil, typically a Dobinson C59-327.

                            The best shock you can put in there will be an 80 series spec shock which will give you both the articulation you need, and the correct valving, and it will match a 270lb/in coil nicely.

                            My advice is spend a few bucks and fix the rear, as it will make all the difference.

                            Give John at Zordos Suspension a call on (07) 33512692, he can set you up with some 24-217897 Bilstein shocks and the C59-327, or taller if you're anticipating more weight, either a 627 or 487, 420 and 430mm respectively. All of those coils will be ok with the 610mm open length on the 24-217897.

                            Best

                            Mark
                            2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Thanks so much for the quick replies guys, I'm loving this forum already!

                              Yes, sorry amts, that's what I meant standard weight (apart from some Titan drawers).

                              Whitey your knowledge is seriously impressive and many thanks for the contact details. My local suspension 'expert' got back to me today and didn't mention anything about the 713's on the back and just suggested I whack on a couple of Dobbo C59-329's to solve the problem. From what I understand so far this would obviously be better than my current Tdog's but won't go close to solving the problems of the 713.

                              My old man has some brand new Bilstein BE5-A715's in his garage from his FJ Cruiser. I can have them pretty cheap Would they be usable on a 120 with 2 inch lift and, if they are, are they an improvement?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Dear Agent Gipps,

                                I hope this information is not being compiled in a top secret computer somewhere, hahaha!

                                329 coils at around 330lb/in are way too stiff.

                                The 715's run around 1000N more rebound than the 713's, so they're better valving wise, but they still won't have enough rebound, and they're still very short. You can get a spacer kit for them to space them down around 20mm, but this will run a long closed length around 390mm, see the second table in the database here;

                                http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...hs-and-Valving

                                With the high compression of the 713 or 715, which is around 1500N, you'd need to run a medium rate coil, around 235lb/in. If you run a high rate coil on 1500N compression it will feel like you've got leaf springs in the rear!

                                As your tough dog coils are an ok rate, to try and save some bucks you could put in cheap 20mm coil seat spacers (typically around $80/pair), and spend your hard earned dollars on new shocks.

                                My advice is not to waste time or money on poorly valved shocks like 713/715.

                                Just get some decent rear shocks!

                                Best

                                Mark
                                2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                                Comment

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