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  • #46
    Originally posted by photoprado View Post
    Hey Mark,

    Do the Foamcell Pros come with an adjuster to sort the ride height at the front, or do we have to add this fancy looking tool you showed:

    If so, does it cost much?
    Hey,

    Yep I'll offer the tool for sale, not sure what the buy price will be, I'll find out from Ironman soon enough! It's not going to be big bucks, less than $100.

    Best

    Mark
    2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by bazzang View Post
      Aww man. Just when I thought I had what suspension I was going to put in sorted you go and throw this in the mix. Was looking at the Bilstein/dobinson package after reading a plethora of posts in here, but now ...
      .
      Haha. Yeah, am in the same boat. Before reading this thread - only dobbinson/ bilstein are on my radar.
      2013 ZR in Crystal Pearl With Bits From ARB Catalogue.

      Comment


      • #48
        I'm watching with interest also.

        Currently have the Ironman Foam Cell Pro's. Had them for about two years and have no complaints. They have been to the Cape, Fraser and some local tracks and haven't had any problems.

        Comment


        • #49
          Hi Bailey, what springs are you running front and rear with your Ironman pro's?

          How is the offroad ride with the Prado loaded and unloaded?
          2008 D4D M6 GXL [MT ATZ-P3][Whitey's Ironman 45710FE/45682FE+KTFR101H/Dob487][extended Roadsafe links][Polyairs][DBA T3/T2][amts diffdrop & recovery points][Tin175's stone guards][Bushskins BashPlate][ARB Sahara][IPF 900s][Snorkel][WindCheetah][MaxTrax][IC-440][Parrot Asteroid][ARB Fridge][Lifestyle 2nd Row Fridge Mount][ARB Compressor][Thumper][SandGrabbers][Cargo Barrier][Tigerz Awning][MCC Rear Bar]

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by photoprado View Post
            Hi Bailey, what springs are you running front and rear with your Ironman pro's?

            How is the offroad ride with the Prado loaded and unloaded?
            Stuck with Ironman for the springs also. Went with the constant load springs.

            Offroad ride is comfortable fully loaded. I was surprised how well they held up when we did the Frenchman's track fully loaded. The Cape trip was incredibly smooth, it wasn't till we stopped and other people started complaining how rough it was that I realized how well the shiocks were holding up.

            Unloaded I think it is a little rough, especially since we normally have the rear seats removed also.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Bailey84 View Post
              Stuck with Ironman for the springs also. Went with the constant load springs.

              Offroad ride is comfortable fully loaded. I was surprised how well they held up when we did the Frenchman's track fully loaded. The Cape trip was incredibly smooth, it wasn't till we stopped and other people started complaining how rough it was that I realized how well the shiocks were holding up.

              Unloaded I think it is a little rough, especially since we normally have the rear seats removed also.
              Sounds good. So you have the TOY065C and TOY056C constant load springs?


              http://www.ironman4x4.com/category-p...n/coil-springs
              2008 D4D M6 GXL [MT ATZ-P3][Whitey's Ironman 45710FE/45682FE+KTFR101H/Dob487][extended Roadsafe links][Polyairs][DBA T3/T2][amts diffdrop & recovery points][Tin175's stone guards][Bushskins BashPlate][ARB Sahara][IPF 900s][Snorkel][WindCheetah][MaxTrax][IC-440][Parrot Asteroid][ARB Fridge][Lifestyle 2nd Row Fridge Mount][ARB Compressor][Thumper][SandGrabbers][Cargo Barrier][Tigerz Awning][MCC Rear Bar]

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by photoprado View Post
                Sounds good. So you have the TOY065C and TOY056C constant load springs?


                http://www.ironman4x4.com/category-p...n/coil-springs
                Definitely TOY065C on the front, you can just make it out on the left in the picture (note picture is upside down so you can read it):

                The rears should be the constant load but to be honest I have never really checked. Might have to crawl under and have a look when I get the chance.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Bailey84 View Post
                  Definitely TOY065C on the front, you can just make it out on the left in the picture (note picture is upside down so you can read it):



                  The rears should be the constant load but to be honest I have never really checked. Might have to crawl under and have a look when I get the chance.
                  Good info, be interested to hear which rear spring you have. Maybe Whitey will be along soon.

                  Do you think you will get your shock valving updated to Whitey's spec?
                  2008 D4D M6 GXL [MT ATZ-P3][Whitey's Ironman 45710FE/45682FE+KTFR101H/Dob487][extended Roadsafe links][Polyairs][DBA T3/T2][amts diffdrop & recovery points][Tin175's stone guards][Bushskins BashPlate][ARB Sahara][IPF 900s][Snorkel][WindCheetah][MaxTrax][IC-440][Parrot Asteroid][ARB Fridge][Lifestyle 2nd Row Fridge Mount][ARB Compressor][Thumper][SandGrabbers][Cargo Barrier][Tigerz Awning][MCC Rear Bar]

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Hey Bailey84 and photoprado,

                    Here are the Ironman coils I'm aware of that will fit the Prado;

                    Front

                    Part Number Spring Rate (lb/in) Free Height (mm)

                    TOY055A 606 380
                    HOLD020A 606 382
                    TOY038B 617 357
                    HOLD020S 669 362
                    HOLD020B 669 375
                    TOY055B 669 380
                    TOY065A 669 400
                    TOY038C 760 357
                    TOY055C 817 373
                    TOY065B 817 375
                    TOY065C 817 380
                    HOLD020C 840 368
                    TOY055EA 1011 365

                    Rear

                    Part Number Spring Rate (lb/in) Free Height (mm)

                    TOY056A 234 400
                    TOY056B 280 395
                    TOY056C 354 392

                    I believe the 234lb/in coil is typically used with the Prado spec rear shock, but you could of course have any of those three.

                    I have run the standard rear valving with my Dobinsons 280lb/in 430mm free height coil, and the compression valving is definitely too high for it (will feel like you have leaf springs all of a sudden), and the basis of my new rear valving was to change this significantly. The standard high compression will work well for a lower rate coil such as the 234lb/in, but this is too low a coil rate for a heavy packed up Prado in terms of not satisfying the Olley criteria for ride rate ratio and the rear suspension frequency being at least 10% higher than the front.

                    All of the kinematic control of the Prado comes from the rear, so if you don't run at least a 270lb/in coil in the rear you will leave yourself open to the notorious pogo stick dynamics of the Prado rear.

                    If you do have a low rate coil in the rear and you did wish to change to my valving, you would need to upgrade your rear coils as well.

                    I also keep my ride heights in the ratio 790mm/830mm, which I have found gives the best handling.

                    Setting up the rear of the Prado is crucial!

                    Best

                    Mark
                    2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Hi Whitey,

                      Ive been following these threads for a while and I'm interested in this kit your putting together - need something to match the Bullbar arriving this week. I'm in a similar boat to bazzang/404pug in terms of use - Minus the van to tow.
                      When packed up to go away i usually a reasonable load on the roof rack and it would be nice to have it roll a bit less through corners at high and low speeds - is this reasonable or impossible to hope for?

                      Seeing as your obviously testing your custom valving on your own 120 what if any changes are you making or do you think will be needed for the 150? Both in terms of shocks and coils?

                      Quick question about spring rates that gets me, since most of the aftermarket coils are lower rates the the OEM. Can I expect worse handling/nose dipping under braking with the Bullbar if they are replaced or with the front strut compression even it out and take care of it?
                      Originally I was after dobinsons as they are closer to the Toyota rate but after reading all your input into matching spring rates and shock valving I'm more unsure then ever!


                      Cheers

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Hey Murry,

                        Having high rebound and high critical damping in the rear shocks is one of the most important factors for controlling the kinematics (pitch, roll etc.) of the Prado. The custom rear Ironmans are designed with 90% critical damping, there is no other Prado shock out there that has this. I can tell you my body roll has improved immensely with these shocks, and it was terrible previously going around roundabouts etc in a packed up Prado.

                        The mass scaling from OEM coils/valving up to the handling/performance type valving on the custom Ironmans is rated to 3200kg, way over GVM. These struts and shocks will work extremely well in either a packed up 120 or 150. The plot below gives you an idea how things change from the FEC Ironman valving/coil rate combination up to my Custom valving in the rear shocks;



                        Keep in mind my 120 Prado weighs 2400kg with accessories before I pack it to the brim! I am also planning on using the new LS11 10%GVM upgrade, as I'm always packed past GVM.

                        The nose dive you experience in the front is caused by a combination of low rebound in the rear OEM shocks, and the 150 OEM coil rate being way over coiled for the OEM valving, which is why the 150 typically handles like a boat on OEM suspension.

                        It is actually better to raise the valving and lower the coil rate for the 150, take a look here for the optimal coil rate/valving setup for the 150;

                        http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...-150-Prado-IFS

                        ....and here;

                        http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...n-of-Coil-Rate

                        The front custom Ironman struts will also be the very first kinematically active struts used on a Prado (and most likely any other IFS vehicle in Australia), and are designed around the intrinsic motion ratio scaling of the valving change from strut to wheel position. Knee speeds are always way too high on off the shelf struts to be kinematically active at the wheel position. My Ironman struts will fix this problem, and for the first time there will be enough rebound at shortened knee speeds to catch body roll, squat etc.

                        Take a squiz here to learn more;

                        http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...uts-and-shocks

                        After reading all of that you'll have a better idea of what the best coil rate/valving match is for getting the Prado to perform in off-road conditions!

                        Best

                        Mark
                        Whitey
                        Shockie Maker of the Month Award
                        Last edited by Whitey; 20-09-2017, 01:01 PM.
                        2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by photoprado View Post
                          Good info, be interested to hear which rear spring you have. Maybe Whitey will be along soon.

                          Do you think you will get your shock valving updated to Whitey's spec?
                          Turns out I have King Springs in the rear, KTRR-102.

                          Not sure what happened there, was suppose to be ironman all round.

                          I also now have Airbags in the rear for when we tow the camper, if that changes anything.

                          Either way I will consider updating to Whitey's spec.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Wow amazing level of detail as always Whitey!
                            I think I'm starting to get a basic grasp... maybe

                            So with the importance of matching coil rates and shock valving - I imagine the theroretical and real life tuning you have been doing has been matched to the king springs?
                            Looking at the king springs data it is intersteing they increase the spring rate for heavy duty / accessories as opposed to dobinsons who seem to just increase coil length with a consistent spring load. Will the kings coil rate changes impact the ride?

                            For us simple people perhaps you could give us a few reccomended king (or other) spring combinations for your custom shocks!
                            Speaking of these very interesting shocks that are turning into my new obsession how's your production time line looking?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Hey Murry,

                              The modeling side is not connected to any particular coil manufacturer, only a coil rate.

                              The mass scaling gives 290lb/in, bit more than the 280lb/in coil I'm running now, which is a C59-487 Dobinsons which I had custom built a fair while back. The reason it is 280 and not 290 is because I wanted a coil that gave at least another 1" of lift in my rear, as the C59-327's I had were always sagging a bit with my constant load of around 90kg in the back. When I went through the design with Dobinsons, this put a linear coil right at its design limits at 280lb/in and 430mm free height.

                              That coil also gives my ride height ratio as 790mm/830mm, which gives the best handling and maximises front end droop.

                              There is a bit of a gap between Dobinsons and Kings for linear coils, and King don't like making tall linear coils. That being said, I have recently enquired and it is possible for King to make a linear 280lb/in 430mm coil.

                              As you can see from the handling box in the plot in post #56, the 260lb/in King is in there, so it will still be ok to use with my custom valving, however there is an issue with the free height. The real issue is to make sure the coil bucket separation matches the open length of the rear Ironman shock, which is 618mm, see here;

                              http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...ado-120-series

                              As you can see you really need a 400mm free height coil at a minimum, and this is what should dictate your selection of coils for the rear.

                              At 400mm or above there's a lot of Dobinsons coils to choose from. Kings you'll be left with KTPR-102 or KTPR-102T, both of which have been run with 1478LT valving without any issues, mostly because the soft section is coil bound at ride height and they are really stacker coils.

                              You can prolly get away with 390mm free height, but you'll get a decent twist, possibly even a totally loose coil at full articulation.

                              I personally don't like progressive/stacker type coils, so I'll always run a linear coil in the rear. Each to their own.

                              In any case, plenty to choose from in Dobinsons or Kings.

                              The rears are already designed and field tested, the front struts should be finished hopefully end of next week!

                              Best

                              Mark
                              2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Bailey84 View Post
                                Turns out I have King Springs in the rear, KTRR-102.

                                Not sure what happened there, was suppose to be ironman all round.

                                I also now have Airbags in the rear for when we tow the camper, if that changes anything.

                                Either way I will consider updating to Whitey's spec.
                                From the Suspension database: http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...nsion-Database
                                King KTRR-102 390 260 (numbers, first is length, second rate)

                                Closest would be the Ironman 56B. but a bit shorter and lighter than that, not the constant load spring:

                                Ironman TOY056B 395 280
                                2008 D4D M6 GXL [MT ATZ-P3][Whitey's Ironman 45710FE/45682FE+KTFR101H/Dob487][extended Roadsafe links][Polyairs][DBA T3/T2][amts diffdrop & recovery points][Tin175's stone guards][Bushskins BashPlate][ARB Sahara][IPF 900s][Snorkel][WindCheetah][MaxTrax][IC-440][Parrot Asteroid][ARB Fridge][Lifestyle 2nd Row Fridge Mount][ARB Compressor][Thumper][SandGrabbers][Cargo Barrier][Tigerz Awning][MCC Rear Bar]

                                Comment

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