Which 2 Inch Lift?

[don logan Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close don logan]

Hi all,

I picked up a 120 V6 the other day and am wanting to lift it but have some questions:

I'm willing to spend up to $2k to get a quality set up that's suited for my needs (which admittedly aren't that out of the ordinary). It currently has standard sized Bridgestone Dueller A/T's fitted and a front ARB Deluxe bar. I haven't fitted a winch yet, but do plan to.

It's main use will be short commutes (15kms round trip to work every day) during the week with 4x4'ing at the weekends, camping, beaches, tracks, etc. so still needs to have some on-road manners once new suspension is fitted, though I do have another car for running around/ city use.

From looking around online, people seem to be very happy with their Lovell/ Bilstein setups, same with Dobinson/ Bilsteins.

I called West Coast Suspension in Perth today enquiring about the cost for their Lovells/ Biltstein 2" lift and they quoted $2050 all fitted and aligned. How does this sound for pricing? Does anyone have any recommendations for other suspension specialists in the Perth area to go to?

I'm also wondering about different brands- ARB quoted around the same for their OME kits fitted, I read a few negative reviews about Old Man Emu, but i'm sure bad reviews exist for all popular brands. I also heard that EFS were good and and also Pedders. Any others to look at?


I can't see myself doing any other mods than adding a winch to the existing ARB Deluxe bar, so am unsure if I need to go with heavy duty front end suspension or not..

As I say, i'm willing to spend the cash to get a decent setup, so any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Guest Close Guest]

I'm waiting on Whitey's version of the Foam Cell Pros. The front struts are adjustable so once you add your winch, you can wind the collar up a bit to compensate for the slight drop in height.

[drwormy Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drwormy]

Those you mention are smallish twin tubes. For that money, the best you will do are monotubes (Bilstein / Dobinsons MRR/MTR) or massive twin tube (like the custom valved Ironman Foam Cell Pros that Whitey is working on). For brands of springs - its about matching the best spring for your setup, so i would suggest being flexible there.

If you look at the links at the end of here:

http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...nsion-Database

To a lot of info that should first confuse you, and then help you get on the right track.

This thread is worth the read though:

http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...-lifted-Prados

[don logan Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close don logan]

Wow, that's a lot of info. Helpful, but to be honest I don't understand a lot of it (what does 'valving' refer to?) and there seem to be so many options that I don't even know where to begin. If I just go to someone like ARB for example, are they likely to take this kind of info into account and give me a good setup matched to my needs, or will they just want to throw in whatever they have on the shelf?

Can anyone recommend a suspension specialist type place in Perth to go and talk to?

I don't want to appear lazy or unwilling to do my research (I am doing so) but there's so much info out there that I keep going round in circles. I could do with this being fitted next week and could do with someone telling me 'xxxx springs will work well with xxxx shocks in the front and xxx with xxxx in the rear!

Can anyone with the same setup as me (120 V6 with bullbar and winch) recommend their setup?

Edit: From looking on the suggested threads, I think the Bilstein BE-D563-M2 is looking like the go for the front end, any help on springs to match it with?

Thanks

[Brett1979 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Brett1979]

Most aftermarket suspensions will improve on-road manners and stop the slight body roll you get when turning right on a roundabout for example. So don't worry about that. I'd more be considering how you want it to perform off road, on rough tracks both high and low speed ones and how it performs under load when you've got the car packed up with a fair bit of weight if weekend trips off the beaten track will be your thing. "Medium" weighted springs in the rear can handle very heavy payloads and still not allow the bump stops to touch when bouncing around on rough tracks. They're generally supple enough for a comfortable ride on-road when unladen, but when you load up the car with a bit of weight the car rides beautifully.

For your front you'll need heavy duty springs to suit a petrol model, with bulbar and winch. That will keep your front end sitting high and not allow it to dip.
Heavy duty springs in the rear for an unladen car will be rough. You'll feel man hole covers and every little bump in the road. H'duty springs for the rear are generally designed for a constant load of +300kg in the rear.

A suspension place will have no idea about your lifestyle and vehicle uses. They will ask questions about weights you carry and what you do with the car to help them suggest the right set-up for you. It's all about weights and not compromising on road comfort. For the rear they'll mainly want to know if you'll be unladen 90% of the time and loaded up heavy for 10% for example, or if you tow a lot, or always have heavy stuff in the boot. Whether the car is loaded up or not loaded up and where you drive it for most of its time is the set-up you'll be wanting/needing?

When I got my suspension lift I was offered adjustable shocks at the time for the same price as the regulars due to a promotional deal, but I declined because I couldn't see myself screwing around or wanting to screw around with set-ups when the car was at different weights and on different terrain. No way was I going to micro-manage a suspension set-up after it was fitted. The standards handled everything just fine. Progressive springs are a fabulous thing and can compensate for this to a large degree. $2,000 for a suspension upgrade will get you just about anything in the heavily advertised market for suspension lifts.

I'd set a first half of a Saturday aside and go around and visit a few places to talk about it and get prices and that will arm you with a lot of knowledge and will help guide you in the right direction.

[don logan Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close don logan]

^ Thanks Brett, can I ask what you went for?

[Brett1979 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Brett1979]

Ive got a TJM 2 inch lift. Medium duty King's springs in the rear and heavy duty in the front due to the steel bar, winch and duel battery system. The shocks are the TJM XGS Gold. I did have a front shock leak oil while in Cape York. I didn't even notice until I got home and washed the car down. I saw the oil leak and then pushed down on that corner and it did go down a fair bit when pushed whereas the other side was firm. It was replaced under warranty. No issues during my 2nd Cape trip or anywhere else I've been. I've taken the car to Fraser Island heaps of times fully loaded to the hilt and it rides nicely over there both loaded and unloaded. I'm happy with how the car handles both on and off road. TJM suspension might not be everyone's cup of tea but I'm happy with it. I know someone in the 4wd equipment game who looked after me price wise so I went the way of a certain brand. Have a good look around though, do some research, flick through some fourby mags, talk to different guys in the industry and narrow down your selections to a couple or a few different brands/set-ups before making up your mind. There's a lot of good gear out there.

[drwormy Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drwormy]

I personally believe that few suspension places will know how to best match springs / struts for a specific vehicle, and they would likely fit whats in the catalogue. Probably the most knowledgle person on Prado suspension is whitey here on PP as he has done considerable effort to both model from the physics and verify that setup on his vehicle. Thats why the info can be overwhelming.

A few pointers id offer: when you add weight you increase the spring rate (ie stiffness of the spring). When you lift you increase spring length. Caution the comparions of 'medium' and 'heavy' - some manufactures heavy duty spring is the same as medium but a bit longer, some are both different lengths and different stiffnesses.

Bilstein D563 with Kings KTFR-101H and Bilstein 24-217897 (prob safety choice) or 1478LT with Dobinsons C59-327 or 627 (depending on how much weight in the back). This will be pretty firm onroad, but handle offroad really well (to explain why youd have to read the complicated posts).

Whitey is really helpful if you PM.

Wow, that's a lot of info. Helpful, but to be honest I don't understand a lot of it (what does 'valving' refer to?) and there seem to be so many options that I don't even know where to begin. If I just go to someone like ARB for example, are they likely to take this kind of info into account and give me a good setup matched to my needs, or will they just want to throw in whatever they have on the shelf?

Can anyone recommend a suspension specialist type place in Perth to go and talk to?

I don't want to appear lazy or unwilling to do my research (I am doing so) but there's so much info out there that I keep going round in circles. I could do with this being fitted next week and could do with someone telling me 'xxxx springs will work well with xxxx shocks in the front and xxx with xxxx in the rear!

Can anyone with the same setup as me (120 V6 with bullbar and winch) recommend their setup?

Edit: From looking on the suggested threads, I think the Bilstein BE-D563-M2 is looking like the go for the front end, any help on springs to match it with?

Thanks

[don logan Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close don logan]

I personally believe that few suspension places will know how to best match springs / struts for a specific vehicle, and they would likely fit whats in the catalogue. Probably the most knowledgle person on Prado suspension is whitey here on PP as he has done considerable effort to both model from the physics and verify that setup on his vehicle. Thats why the info can be overwhelming.

A few pointers id offer: when you add weight you increase the spring rate (ie stiffness of the spring). When you lift you increase spring length. Caution the comparions of 'medium' and 'heavy' - some manufactures heavy duty spring is the same as medium but a bit longer, some are both different lengths and different stiffnesses.

Bilstein D563 with Kings KTFR-101H and Bilstein 24-217897 (prob safety choice) or 1478LT with Dobinsons C59-327 or 627 (depending on how much weight in the back). This will be pretty firm onroad, but handle offroad really well (to explain why youd have to read the complicated posts).

Whitey is really helpful if you PM.

My thoughts exactly regarding suspension places wanting to fit whatever's in the catalogue, and also the different interpretations of 'medium' and 'heavy' between different manufacturers.

Regarding Whitey, I've looked at all of the threads and the amazing amount of info he's provided, I did have in mind to PM him, but didn't want to start hassling people by PM so soon after posting this thread. But, well, now i'm gonna

Thanks for the Bilstein/Kings and Bilstein/Dobinsons suggestions above, that's really helpful and will give me somewhere to start with when ringing around for prices.

Will let you know how it goes...

Edit: Hmmm, looks like I haven't earned the honour of being able to PM...

[Whitey Shockie Maker of the Month Award Find all posts View Profile Close Whitey]

Hey don,

The PM message service is still down after admin closed it for a site upgrade. I haven't heard any updates on when it will return.

drwormy has given you good advice, the D563/1478LT/660/270 combo is one of the best off the shelf bang for buck monotube suspension setups you can get.

Unfortunately D563's are sold out right now, none anywhere in Australia. Could be up to 6 weeks before we see any again.

The TJM gear mentioned above is small bore 35mm twin tube. While the front struts are valved ok, the rears are definitely too soft, and in my experience 35mm twins fade out too quickly in the rear of a heavy Prado.

If you're interested in twin tubes, the big bore hydraulics are hard to beat. Have a look at the Ironmans, good lengths and valving, the other manufacturers of big bore hydraulics are let down by poor critical damping at low velocity or too short lengths for lifted geometry. Ironmans are also rebuildable at home in your own garage!

Hopefully the PM service will be up and running again soon!

Best

Mark

[don logan Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close don logan]

The Man himself! Thanks Mark. If the D563's are going to be unavailable for so long then i'll consider anything else that's recommended by anyone who knows what they're talking about...

Would the Ironmans you mention be the Foam Cell Pros, and would I still be better using the same Kings/ Dobinson springs as mentioned above? Or are their own springs OK?


Thanks again


EDIT: I spoke to a suspension place here in Perth today who have in stock the following:

Front: Dobinson C59-352 (or C59-350 if requested)/ Bilstein BE5- D563

Rear: Dobinson C59- 325/ Bilstein 24-217897

The guy said that being a Hilux strut, he couldn't see the 'advantage' of using D563's on a Prado, and suggested A712's, but said he would fit the D563's if I wanted. He did say that they may allow too much droop and for the CV's to cop damage if so.

Ironman said I'd be waiting til June at least for Foam Cell Pros (if they were fitting).

Any opinions on the above Dobinson/ Bilstein setup/s, especially regarding too much travel on the D563's? Is there going to be much difference between the D563's and the A712's and will a diff drop kit be necessary if going with the D563's to avoid CV damage?

Thanks

[zutta Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close zutta]

hey mate,
try AUTORIDE SUSPENSION
31 Beryl St Balcatta , WA 6021.

found the owner to know his shit. helped me out with my suspension while i was doing the lap travelling.

Also he runs The cleanest & most organised work shop i ever have ever been too

[Jester Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jester]

I just fitted a set of Ironman foam cell pros to my 08 d4d. these things are awesome and the adjust ability of them is a massive bonus.

[Whitey Shockie Maker of the Month Award Find all posts View Profile Close Whitey]

The Man himself! Thanks Mark. If the D563's are going to be unavailable for so long then i'll consider anything else that's recommended by anyone who knows what they're talking about...

Would the Ironmans you mention be the Foam Cell Pros, and would I still be better using the same Kings/ Dobinson springs as mentioned above? Or are their own springs OK?


Thanks again


EDIT: I spoke to a suspension place here in Perth today who have in stock the following:

Front: Dobinson C59-352 (or C59-350 if requested)/ Bilstein BE5- D563

Rear: Dobinson C59- 325/ Bilstein 24-217897

The guy said that being a Hilux strut, he couldn't see the 'advantage' of using D563's on a Prado, and suggested A712's, but said he would fit the D563's if I wanted. He did say that they may allow too much droop and for the CV's to cop damage if so.

Ironman said I'd be waiting til June at least for Foam Cell Pros (if they were fitting).

Any opinions on the above Dobinson/ Bilstein setup/s, especially regarding too much travel on the D563's? Is there going to be much difference between the D563's and the A712's and will a diff drop kit be necessary if going with the D563's to avoid CV damage?

Thanks

Hey don,

See here regarding the valving of the 712;

http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...-150-Prado-IFS

While the plot in that thread shows a 150 OEM strut, it is the same damping curve for the 120. The 712 is just a copy of the OEM valving. Once you throw some accessories on your Prado, there's not enough rebound in the 712 strut to handle any extra weight or stiffer coils. If anyone suggests to you to run a 712 strut, then you may want to take your business elsewhere. Most people selling Bilsteins are not aware of the valving, what coil should be run with that valving, or how that valving will handle off road conditions.

See post #53 in this thread for the D563 valving;

http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...-Valving/page5

You'll quickly see the D563 runs the same compression curve as the 712, but much higher rebound. That is the 'advantage' of the D563, it will transform your Prado in off-road conditions.

The 350 or 352 Dobinsons coil will work well with the D563 valving.

The D563's don't allow too much droop for CV damage to occur, see here for geometrical binding limits on the 120 IFS;

http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...-120-Prado-IFS

You are never in danger of binding the CV, which starts to stiffen up in the 585-590mm open length range. The real issue is the ball joint in the OEM arm binds up at the same open length of the D563 strut, 575mm. This means at full droop you'll be sharing the full roughly 100kg weight of the IFS between the upper arm ball joint and the strut. The strut is designed to handle the weight of the IFS hanging on it, the ball joint is not. This is why if you choose to run D563 struts you will need to either shorten their open length (as I did to 570mm), or get after market upper arms which droop below 575mm. Blackhawks with their new ball joint will do this. You can use a diff drop to alleviate the ride height angle on the CV. Diff drops only change the angle by around 1 degree at droop. It is at ride height where the CV angle is most important.

Regarding the rear, the 24-217897 is an excellent shock both valving and length wise. However the 325 coil is far too soft at 220lb/in for that valving. Further, you will really muck up the front:rear suspension frequency ratio running a 725/220 coil combination.

My advice is to run the C59-627 coil, if it is not easily available, you can always use the shorter 327 coil. Both the 627 and 327 are 270lb/in coils, and will be not only an excellent load bearing coil in the Prado rear, but the 270lb/in is very well matched to the 3700N/515N valving of the 24-217897. Running a 725/270 coil rate combo will be much better frequency wise and will help minimise pitch, something the rear of the Prado is very susceptible to.

My advice is not to lift past 790-800mm on the front, as even with the longest open length struts you will still lose droop in a 1:1 ratio, see here;

http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...-Prado-120-IFS

I keep my rear ride height around 830mm. The 790/830 ride height ratio gives the best handling on the Prado.

Regarding the Ironmans, I will be running a group buy on custom valved Ironman Foamcell Pros soon. For more info on what I am doing with the Ironman valving see these two threads;

http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...the-Prado-rear

http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...uts-and-shocks

That should all get you pointed in the right direction!

Best

Mark

[Guest Close Guest]

Front: Dobinson C59-352 (or C59-350 if requested)/ Bilstein BE5- D563

Rear: Dobinson C59- 325/ Bilstein 24-217897

The guy said that being a Hilux strut, he couldn't see the 'advantage' of using D563's on a Prado, and suggested A712's, but said he would fit the D563's if I wanted. He did say that they may allow too much droop and for the CV's to cop damage if so.

Ironman said I'd be waiting til June at least for Foam Cell Pros (if they were fitting).

Any opinions on the above Dobinson/ Bilstein setup/s, especially regarding too much travel on the D563's? Is there going to be much difference between the D563's and the A712's and will a diff drop kit be necessary if going with the D563's to avoid CV damage?

Thanks

Please read Whitey's post
http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...hs-and-Valving
http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...il-out-cycling