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photos of damaged or destroyed recovery/tie down points and equipment.

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  • #16
    I'm not an engineer, but I don't think the rear bolt will be the main pivot point. It is the anchor point.

    The front bolt is the pivot point and will apply force to the chassis via the front and rear bolt. The recovery point will maintain the structure of the chassis up until a point. As you can see, if the recovery is applied to the tie down point, the tie down point is below the chassis rail so there is a twisting force applied which clearly caused the destruction in the photo above. The recovery plate ties the lower section to the chassis rail to give it better structure. Of course there is a limit beyond which the chassis will be damaged.

    The bolts supplied with the AMTS plate are high tensile bolts attached at high force.

    Yes, both front points should be connected via a bridle and the snatch strap or winch cable connected to the bridle.
    2008 D4D M6 GXL [MT ATZ-P3][Whitey's Ironman 45710FE/45682FE+KTFR101H/Dob487][extended Roadsafe links][Polyairs][DBA T3/T2][amts diffdrop & recovery points][Tin175's stone guards][Bushskins BashPlate][ARB Sahara][IPF 900s][Snorkel][WindCheetah][MaxTrax][IC-440][Parrot Asteroid][ARB Fridge][Lifestyle 2nd Row Fridge Mount][ARB Compressor][Thumper][SandGrabbers][Cargo Barrier][Tigerz Awning][MCC Rear Bar]

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    • #17
      Yes it's a nice brightly painted steel plate, but it's how and what it is attached to that actually matters.

      I would love to see the Toyota design and approval for these recovery mounting points.[/QUOTE]

      agree 100% -- it just blows me away how people think coz its shiny or bright and has a 3 letter brand name stamped on it that suddenly it can transform a car into some sort of physics defying steel behemoth!

      G

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      • #18
        I should add that I'm not having a go at the recovery plates, it's just the assumptions that are made when attaching them to the chassis. From an engineering perspective it's hard to see the benefit and without doing the calculations, which would involve getting hold of Toyota's design info, it's impossible to be definitive either way.

        Best to err on the side of caution when doing recovery.
        [B]Steve[/B]

        2010 Silver GXL Prado 150, D4D Auto, with a few non standard bits

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        • #19
          Everyone will have their own ideas, because there is no perfect solution.

          The reason I chose a bolted on recovery point instead of using the tie down points is because of the issues with the tie down points. There are two issues with the tie down points that concern myself.

          1) The tie down points are not aligned to the chassis. They are set below the chassis, so when used for recovery, they will be adding a strong rotation to the front of the chassis and are more likely to shear the chassis as can be seen in the photo:



          2) The tie down points are not rated, and they have no guarantee of conformity between vehicles. One may be excellent, but another may not. Have a look at AJ120's description:

          http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...l=1#post322049
          2008 D4D M6 GXL [MT ATZ-P3][Whitey's Ironman 45710FE/45682FE+KTFR101H/Dob487][extended Roadsafe links][Polyairs][DBA T3/T2][amts diffdrop & recovery points][Tin175's stone guards][Bushskins BashPlate][ARB Sahara][IPF 900s][Snorkel][WindCheetah][MaxTrax][IC-440][Parrot Asteroid][ARB Fridge][Lifestyle 2nd Row Fridge Mount][ARB Compressor][Thumper][SandGrabbers][Cargo Barrier][Tigerz Awning][MCC Rear Bar]

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          • #20
            photoprado

            IMHO recovery points are better than the tie downs no question asked, but they are still breakable just like bull bars

            the recovery point (plate) may be rated but its the holes that they are mounted to / through and chassis construction or lack of in this mounting area that is not rated. Bit like putting a rated shackle through an unrated chain or not identifying the difference between a static load or dynamic (shock) load.

            in essence aftermarket accessories are just that, add-on's and not engineered from the ground up as one complete unit

            not much over engineering in modern cars, the bean counters have reduced the excess on everything from the chassis up
            Last edited by GEEEXL; 18-08-2017, 01:36 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by photoprado View Post
              Actually, the problem is using the Prado's tie down points to winch or drag it instead of using a proper aftermarket mount.
              They're used as tie-down points, yes. That's like most cars. However, in my manual for a 2016 GXL it also states that the ones on the Prado can be used to tow the car with. Snatch? No way - that's why I have recovery points. But the Prado ones are more than just tie-down points. Check the car manual

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              • #22
                Maybe the after market recovery point manufacturers have had engineers design and rate their systems? maybe worth contacting them and asking. I'd be surprised if they weren't engineer rated (including the mounting method), it would open them up to legal ramifications.
                2010 150 gxl D4D with ARB delux bar, towbar! Custom DIY drawers, rhino HD bars, 2" Dobinsons, platform rack, IPF lights and BFG AT2 and extras

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Black 150 View Post
                  Maybe the after market recovery point manufacturers have had engineers design and rate their systems? maybe worth contacting them and asking. I'd be surprised if they weren't engineer rated (including the mounting method), it would open them up to legal ramifications.
                  Too many assumptions for an engineer to put their name to. Saying a product is "rated" in this instance is merely a marketing ploy.

                  The 10/12mm plate the recovery point is fabricated from is never going to fail when it is correctly bolted to a chassis such as these. Much more likely the chassis member will fail.

                  Lets see someone set up a recovery point on a test bed with a load cell and see what load the point will yield at or the bolts snap.
                  adrian5800
                  Advanced Member
                  Last edited by adrian5800; 18-08-2017, 05:08 PM.
                  Silver '04 KZJ120~Manual~GXL~Dobinson/Kings lift~Custom valved Ironmans~Detroit Locker~Endless Air~X9 Superwinch~Madman EMS1~TJM Dual Battery~Rhino Roof Tray~120W solar panel~Foxwing awning~Bushskinz UVP~Long Ranger water tank~Bushman fridge~Steinbauer P-Box~Beaudesert 2 3/4"~Airtec Snorkel~TJM Sliders~Prico Boost Gauge~BFG-KO2s~TPMS~GME TX3420~Front and Rear Cameras~Ultimate Camper hanging off the back!

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                  • #24
                    [QUOTE=photoprado;574812]Everyone will have their own ideas, because there is no perfect solution."


                    "1) The tie down points are not aligned to the chassis. They are set below the chassis, so when used for recovery, they will be adding a strong rotation to the front of the chassis and are more likely to shear the chassis as can be seen in the photo:"

                    I think you need to take another look at those beautiful "Superior Engineering" recovery plates, beyond the swish red paint you will see the connection point is also way below the chassis central axis so you will have to reject those plates too as "adding a strong rotation to the front of the chassis"
                    Last edited by Mule; 21-08-2017, 08:09 PM.
                    2009 120 GXL D4D, TJM Bull Bar, Winch, Safari Snorkel, ARB Lift, ARB Lockers, Black Widow Drawers

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mule View Post
                      I think you need to take another look at those beautiful "Superior Engineering" recovery plates, beyond the swish red paint you will see the connection point is also way below the chassis central axis so you will have to reject those plates too as "adding a strong rotation to the front of the chassis"
                      Have another look, and you will notice two bolts at different locations and a distance apart.

                      Yes, the lower bolt is below the main chassis, but they are bolted in two places - One is low but the other is bolted further back to the main chassis, so there is less rotation on the front of the chassis and over a length of the chassis compared to the tie down points.

                      Nothing is perfect, but those swish red plates are stronger and connected over a greater length delivering less leverage onto the chassis than the tie down points.
                      2008 D4D M6 GXL [MT ATZ-P3][Whitey's Ironman 45710FE/45682FE+KTFR101H/Dob487][extended Roadsafe links][Polyairs][DBA T3/T2][amts diffdrop & recovery points][Tin175's stone guards][Bushskins BashPlate][ARB Sahara][IPF 900s][Snorkel][WindCheetah][MaxTrax][IC-440][Parrot Asteroid][ARB Fridge][Lifestyle 2nd Row Fridge Mount][ARB Compressor][Thumper][SandGrabbers][Cargo Barrier][Tigerz Awning][MCC Rear Bar]

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                      • #26
                        I have no difficulty with the idea that the aftermarket plates in the picture, and ones like them, reduce the likelihood of the chassis tearing as per the video. If I had a standard front end I would want those aftermarket points.

                        But it seems to me that their benefit is not in replacing the actual attachment points for your straps, their benefit is in strengthening the chassis. And I have an ARB deluxe bar, which has plates as part of the mounting which, as far as I can see, do exactly the same thing. They help to transfer some of the pulling force back to the chassis, behind the weak point that tore. They resist those rotational forces we've been talking about - even if you're pulling from the OEM points, they'll still do that.

                        So I come back to my earlier questions:
                        Can anyone suggest why I still need the aftermarket points, if I have the ARB bar?
                        And, do we agree that the shorter aftermarket points that AREN'T bolted back behind the weak point on the chassis (but only attach to the short vertical bit that the OEM points are attached to) really aren't that great an idea?
                        2008 D4D GX Auto, OP2 (traction/cruise/climate control), ARB deluxe bar, DominatorX winch, dual batteries, Whitey's 50mm lift, 265/70/17, UHF, King's 7" spotties, trans cooler

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by photoprado View Post
                          Have another look, and you will notice two bolts at different locations and a distance apart.

                          Yes, the lower bolt is below the main chassis, but they are bolted in two places - One is low but the other is bolted further back to the main chassis, so there is less rotation on the front of the chassis and over a length of the chassis compared to the tie down points.

                          Nothing is perfect, but those swish red plates are stronger and connected over a greater length delivering less leverage onto the chassis than the tie down points.
                          Unfortunately physics and some basic engineering principles mean that the top bolt becomes the rotational fulcrum. This is exacerbated by the fact that the plate does not achieve a friction fit with the chassis rail. Like I said the alternative is to weld it on but that would have a whole bunch of other consequences.

                          The plates don't do a lot to change the situation, maybe someone is willing to do some failure tests to prove the theory wrong?
                          [B]Steve[/B]

                          2010 Silver GXL Prado 150, D4D Auto, with a few non standard bits

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                          • #28
                            Not required. if you look at the photo of previous failed chassis rail tied to the tie down loop, you can see the chassis split at the point of the indentation on the rail. That is clearly the weak point at the front of the chassis. The tension of the red plate shares the load between both points.

                            Sharing the load between both locations will reduce the leverage on the chassis rail and crosses the weak point. IMHO, you are incorrect.

                            You are welcome to your opinion, as am I. Without having the front end of a prado destroyed in testing, lets just go with each of our opinions.
                            2008 D4D M6 GXL [MT ATZ-P3][Whitey's Ironman 45710FE/45682FE+KTFR101H/Dob487][extended Roadsafe links][Polyairs][DBA T3/T2][amts diffdrop & recovery points][Tin175's stone guards][Bushskins BashPlate][ARB Sahara][IPF 900s][Snorkel][WindCheetah][MaxTrax][IC-440][Parrot Asteroid][ARB Fridge][Lifestyle 2nd Row Fridge Mount][ARB Compressor][Thumper][SandGrabbers][Cargo Barrier][Tigerz Awning][MCC Rear Bar]

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by photoprado View Post
                              Not required. if you look at the photo of previous failed chassis rail tied to the tie down loop, you can see the chassis split at the point of the indentation on the rail. That is clearly the weak point at the front of the chassis. The tension of the red plate shares the load between both points.

                              Sharing the load between both locations will reduce the leverage on the chassis rail and crosses the weak point. IMHO, you are incorrect.

                              You are welcome to your opinion, as am I. Without having the front end of a prado destroyed in testing, lets just go with each of our opinions.
                              Everyone can make their own decisions, but from a basic engineering design perspective the plates don't substantially change the distribution of forces, no opinions involved. Those red plates are actually pretty good because they don't magnify the forces, some longer plates that hang down further actually make things worse.
                              [B]Steve[/B]

                              2010 Silver GXL Prado 150, D4D Auto, with a few non standard bits

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                              • #30
                                It would be nice if the manufacturer would have reinforcement engineered into the chassis specifically designed to be fit for purpose (snatching / winching). They don't and bolting on brightly colored plates whilst is a small improvement is still only bolted to a 3mm think chassis box section - its a fashion item more than its fit for purpose

                                IMHO bolting on all these frilly bits does not improve a vehicle - quite the opposite but it makes TV Magazines and employs peeps in an industry with the mantra that "you absolutely need all this shite or you'll be stranded and perish in your local westfield car park"

                                without the mentioned testing its just speculation

                                its a prado - modern luxury family wagon that is quite capable off road for what it is - its not a purpose built all terrain vehicle no matter what you bolt onto it

                                its good to see passionate about their gear though

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