I had no idea what I was starting. Will be really interesting to hear about a direct comparison.
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KDSS vs High quality suspension upgrade
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Pics of the 150 on 35s please.My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic
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Back on track
You can fit aftermarket springs and shocks to a KDSS equiped vehicle.
End result it is better than the same setup without KDSS
But on with the show lets talk about these high quality Ironmam shocks
And Yes KDSS does address damping and can address pitch related movement to some extent
Not as well as body roll but better than a non KDSSLast edited by Phs; 17-11-2017, 06:57 PM.
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Originally posted by Phs View PostBack on track
You can fit aftermarket springs and shocks to a KDSS equiped vehicle.
End result it is better than the same setup without KDSS
But on with the show lets talk about these high quality Ironmam shocks
And Yes KDSS does address damping and can address pitch related movement to some extent
Not as well as body roll but better than a non KDSS
The custom Ironmans contain an ingredient in abundance which most after markets shocks contain very little of. Critical damping. Do you know what the valving in the Ironmans is, what the vehicles that run this setup can do? Have you driven in one? Have you driven in a vehicle with high critical damping? ...and yes for the record I have driven many KDSS vehicles. Do you know what the valving is in the BP-51's that you are running??
Let's be clear here, the KDSS is a hydraulic swaybar, it is not a hydraulic damper.
Would you even be talking about pitch related movements if I hadn't raised the point? ...but now apparently your subjective understanding of KDSS suggests it addresses pitch related motion to "some extent", better even than a non-KDSS vehicle!
So should we all just throw out our shock absorbers and run KDSS? If KDSS is so good why isn't it on every vehicle?
Subjective opinions from KDSS owners aside (unless you happen to be the engineer who designed it!), I am genuinely interested in seeing it operate under conditions that will test suspension components at the limits of their operation.
Driving over hard vertical edged 100mm gutters at high speeds will quickly find out how good your suspension really is, the impulse Force scales logarithmically over extremely short timescales, 0.001 to 0.01 seconds, generating shaft velocities up to 10m/s. I have my doubts that the KDSS can react quickly enough under these conditions. If it can then the KDSS engineers can pat themselves on the back for a job well done!
Have you loaded you Prado in the rear with an additional 500kg and performed a simple pitching test? If you haven't you should!
Best
Mark2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.
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Originally posted by Phs View PostBack on track
You can fit aftermarket springs and shocks to a KDSS equiped vehicle.
End result it is better than the same setup without KDSS
But on with the show lets talk about these high quality Ironmam shocks
And Yes KDSS does address damping and can address pitch related movement to some extent
Not as well as body roll but better than a non KDSS
Reading some of the other threads it sounded like it is a bit complicated changing to aftermarket shocks and springs.[B]Steve[/B]
2010 Silver GXL Prado 150, D4D Auto, with a few non standard bits
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I understand magnetic fluid in shocks and adjustable damping but cannot see how kdss can affect damping. Happy to be educated. Also keen to see the 35s as I struggled with 33s on P0 rims.My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic
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.. my bad..Last edited by 120D4D; 17-11-2017, 09:17 PM.Cheers
Micheal.
2008 GXL D4D Auto. GOING... GOING... GONE
2015 GXL 1GD Auto. And it begins again...
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Originally posted by Whitey View PostSuch bold and sweeping generalisations!
The custom Ironmans contain an ingredient in abundance which most after markets shocks contain very little of. Critical damping. Do you know what the valving in the Ironmans is, what the vehicles that run this setup can do? Have you driven in one? Have you driven in a vehicle with high critical damping? ...and yes for the record I have driven many KDSS vehicles. Do you know what the valving is in the BP-51's that you are running??
Let's be clear here, the KDSS is a hydraulic swaybar, it is not a hydraulic damper.
Would you even be talking about pitch related movements if I hadn't raised the point? ...but now apparently your subjective understanding of KDSS suggests it addresses pitch related motion to "some extent", better even than a non-KDSS vehicle!
So should we all just throw out our shock absorbers and run KDSS? If KDSS is so good why isn't it on every vehicle?
Subjective opinions from KDSS owners aside (unless you happen to be the engineer who designed it!), I am genuinely interested in seeing it operate under conditions that will test suspension components at the limits of their operation.
Driving over hard vertical edged 100mm gutters at high speeds will quickly find out how good your suspension really is, the impulse Force scales logarithmically over extremely short timescales, 0.001 to 0.01 seconds, generating shaft velocities up to 10m/s. I have my doubts that the KDSS can react quickly enough under these conditions. If it can then the KDSS engineers can pat themselves on the back for a job well done!
Have you loaded you Prado in the rear with an additional 500kg and performed a simple pitching test? If you haven't you should!
Best
Mark
Did we not already make it clear KDSS works with springs and shocks, Yes I have read about your custom valving sounds great can't comment on how it rides as I'm not silly enough to assume without experiencing it personally, paper is simply that paper.
Why would I want to drive over a 100mm hard edge gutter at high speed ? Not only is that silly but also pointless as I never set this up to go slamming hard edge gutters.
As per my original statement On and off road the ride quality is excellent.
Mark you seem like a bright guy what is it you are trying to say
Non KDSS vehicles with the same springs and shocks ride better than ones fitted with KDSS...
Have I loaded up for a pitch test ? No,
I have pushed it off-road to see what it handled like and found there was no pitch issues. Also find it handles washouts and speed humps very nicely in deed
Prior to all the piss taking I genuinely offered you to come see for your self, but no stress man
As I said on with the showLast edited by Phs; 17-11-2017, 10:10 PM.
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No one is saying stock without kdss is better than stock with. The question is how does good aftermarket compare to kdss for those of us who dont have kdss. More relevant now that kdss seems to be reserved for the kakadu only.My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic
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Hey Phs,
No piss taking, I'm genuinely interested! ...and I like your KDSS passion!
I'm gunna pull you right up over the gutter thing though. If you haven't driven over hard edged obstacles with your suspension then you don't know what your suspension can do or what the limits of it are. It's not silly, this is a standard test for all automotive suspension manufacturers. There are much harsher tests!
Everyone (me included) has a subjective opinion about what can be deemed as "excellent" ride quality. There is even a range of suspension frequencies for individual parts of the human body that manufacturers test transmissibility curves over.
I am saying unequivocally that KDSS is not the suspension unicorn that you believe it to be. Having driven KDSS myself they are an improvement over SOME after market shock absorbers, but not ALL. That is also my subjective opinion.
I like the aims of KDSS, a more kinematically controlled movement of the sprung mass....which the driver perceives as a comfortable/cushy/well handling/even "excellent" ride quality. This is also the aim of high critically damped shocks...minimal cycling of the sprung mass.
Feedback wise I would say KDSS masks the limitations of your shock absorbers and subsequently your tires. Both are connected in the dance of the quarter car model. You can push a KDSS vehicle hard....just like you can push a high critically damped non-KDSS vehicle hard....but you will quickly find yourself at your tire limits in both because of this.
Your statement that "Non KDSS vehicles with the same springs and shocks ride better than ones fitted with KDSS..." is a strongly blanket and subjective statement. I can go down to Fulcrum and purchase a multiple setting rear swaybar that can run similar torsional settings to KDSS under different driving settings. That swaybar doesn't cost anything like KDSS....and those critically damped shocks can react faster than your KDSS.
I think you might be pleasantly surprised to find what a high critically damped Prado on the OEM swaybar can do.
No stress, come for a drive next week, my pleasure!
Best
Mark2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.
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Originally posted by mjrandom View PostNo one is saying stock without kdss is better than stock with. The question is how does good aftermarket compare to kdss for those of us who dont have kdss. More relevant now that kdss seems to be reserved for the kakadu only.
I'm really interested in the off road aspects. I didn't buy my prado to drive fast around corners on bitumen, apart from being a bit pointless in a 2.5t vehicle with high centre of gravity, the tyres seem to be the limiting factor.[B]Steve[/B]
2010 Silver GXL Prado 150, D4D Auto, with a few non standard bits
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Originally posted by Whitey View PostHey Phs,
No piss taking, I'm genuinely interested! ...and I like your KDSS passion!
I'm gunna pull you right up over the gutter thing though. If you haven't driven over hard edged obstacles with your suspension then you don't know what your suspension can do or what the limits of it are. It's not silly, this is a standard test for all automotive suspension manufacturers. There are much harsher tests!
Everyone (me included) has a subjective opinion about what can be deemed as "excellent" ride quality. There is even a range of suspension frequencies for individual parts of the human body that manufacturers test transmissibility curves over.
I am saying unequivocally that KDSS is not the suspension unicorn that you believe it to be. Having driven KDSS myself they are an improvement over SOME after market shock absorbers, but not ALL. That is also my subjective opinion.
I like the aims of KDSS, a more kinematically controlled movement of the sprung mass....which the driver perceives as a comfortable/cushy/well handling/even "excellent" ride quality. This is also the aim of high critically damped shocks...minimal cycling of the sprung mass.
Feedback wise I would say KDSS masks the limitations of your shock absorbers and subsequently your tires. Both are connected in the dance of the quarter car model. You can push a KDSS vehicle hard....just like you can push a high critically damped non-KDSS vehicle hard....but you will quickly find yourself at your tire limits in both because of this.
Your statement that "Non KDSS vehicles with the same springs and shocks ride better than ones fitted with KDSS..." is a strongly blanket and subjective statement. I can go down to Fulcrum and purchase a multiple setting rear swaybar that can run similar torsional settings to KDSS under different driving settings. That swaybar doesn't cost anything like KDSS....and those critically damped shocks can react faster than your KDSS.
I think you might be pleasantly surprised to find what a high critically damped Prado on the OEM swaybar can do.
No stress, come for a drive next week, my pleasure!
Best
Mark
Regards,
SandStorm.au1996 3.4L GXL Manual in Crystal Pearl - [B]SOLD[/B]
2014 D4D VX in Silver Pearl with: 265/65/18 BFG KO2's, Safari snorkel, ARB Summit & Kaymar barwork, ARB UVP, Roadsafe recovery points, Superior Engineering 2in lift, OL diff breathers, ICOM IC-450, Redarc Dual Battery, RhinoRack Backbone, MaxTrax and more to come...
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