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  • #16
    I had no idea what I was starting. Will be really interesting to hear about a direct comparison.
    [B]Steve[/B]

    2010 Silver GXL Prado 150, D4D Auto, with a few non standard bits

    Comment


    • #17
      Pics of the 150 on 35s please.
      My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic

      Comment


      • #18
        Yet more argument that Toyota should offer KDSS as an optional upgrade on all grades - rather than just a leather pack option. I think they still do this option for the LC200 GXL Diesel, so not impossible.

        Comment


        • #19
          So getting back on track it sounds like KDSS provides additional lateral control and swaybar decoupling, which doesn't address damping rates and any pitch related movement?
          [B]Steve[/B]

          2010 Silver GXL Prado 150, D4D Auto, with a few non standard bits

          Comment


          • #20
            Back on track
            You can fit aftermarket springs and shocks to a KDSS equiped vehicle.
            End result it is better than the same setup without KDSS
            But on with the show lets talk about these high quality Ironmam shocks

            And Yes KDSS does address damping and can address pitch related movement to some extent
            Not as well as body roll but better than a non KDSS
            Phs
            Senior Member
            Last edited by Phs; 17-11-2017, 06:57 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Phs View Post
              Back on track
              You can fit aftermarket springs and shocks to a KDSS equiped vehicle.
              End result it is better than the same setup without KDSS
              But on with the show lets talk about these high quality Ironmam shocks

              And Yes KDSS does address damping and can address pitch related movement to some extent
              Not as well as body roll but better than a non KDSS
              Such bold and sweeping generalisations!

              The custom Ironmans contain an ingredient in abundance which most after markets shocks contain very little of. Critical damping. Do you know what the valving in the Ironmans is, what the vehicles that run this setup can do? Have you driven in one? Have you driven in a vehicle with high critical damping? ...and yes for the record I have driven many KDSS vehicles. Do you know what the valving is in the BP-51's that you are running??

              Let's be clear here, the KDSS is a hydraulic swaybar, it is not a hydraulic damper.

              Would you even be talking about pitch related movements if I hadn't raised the point? ...but now apparently your subjective understanding of KDSS suggests it addresses pitch related motion to "some extent", better even than a non-KDSS vehicle!

              So should we all just throw out our shock absorbers and run KDSS? If KDSS is so good why isn't it on every vehicle?

              Subjective opinions from KDSS owners aside (unless you happen to be the engineer who designed it!), I am genuinely interested in seeing it operate under conditions that will test suspension components at the limits of their operation.

              Driving over hard vertical edged 100mm gutters at high speeds will quickly find out how good your suspension really is, the impulse Force scales logarithmically over extremely short timescales, 0.001 to 0.01 seconds, generating shaft velocities up to 10m/s. I have my doubts that the KDSS can react quickly enough under these conditions. If it can then the KDSS engineers can pat themselves on the back for a job well done!

              Have you loaded you Prado in the rear with an additional 500kg and performed a simple pitching test? If you haven't you should!

              Best

              Mark
              2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Phs View Post
                Back on track
                You can fit aftermarket springs and shocks to a KDSS equiped vehicle.
                End result it is better than the same setup without KDSS
                But on with the show lets talk about these high quality Ironmam shocks

                And Yes KDSS does address damping and can address pitch related movement to some extent
                Not as well as body roll but better than a non KDSS
                Ok that's what I was trying to understand as I can't see how the KDSS system provides damping, but being a hydraulic sway bar it must do that.

                Reading some of the other threads it sounded like it is a bit complicated changing to aftermarket shocks and springs.
                [B]Steve[/B]

                2010 Silver GXL Prado 150, D4D Auto, with a few non standard bits

                Comment


                • #23
                  I understand magnetic fluid in shocks and adjustable damping but cannot see how kdss can affect damping. Happy to be educated. Also keen to see the 35s as I struggled with 33s on P0 rims.
                  My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    .. my bad..
                    120D4D
                    Avid PP Poster!
                    Last edited by 120D4D; 17-11-2017, 09:17 PM.
                    Cheers
                    Micheal.

                    2008 GXL D4D Auto. GOING... GOING... GONE
                    2015 GXL 1GD Auto. And it begins again...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Whitey View Post
                      Such bold and sweeping generalisations!

                      The custom Ironmans contain an ingredient in abundance which most after markets shocks contain very little of. Critical damping. Do you know what the valving in the Ironmans is, what the vehicles that run this setup can do? Have you driven in one? Have you driven in a vehicle with high critical damping? ...and yes for the record I have driven many KDSS vehicles. Do you know what the valving is in the BP-51's that you are running??

                      Let's be clear here, the KDSS is a hydraulic swaybar, it is not a hydraulic damper.

                      Would you even be talking about pitch related movements if I hadn't raised the point? ...but now apparently your subjective understanding of KDSS suggests it addresses pitch related motion to "some extent", better even than a non-KDSS vehicle!

                      So should we all just throw out our shock absorbers and run KDSS? If KDSS is so good why isn't it on every vehicle?

                      Subjective opinions from KDSS owners aside (unless you happen to be the engineer who designed it!), I am genuinely interested in seeing it operate under conditions that will test suspension components at the limits of their operation.

                      Driving over hard vertical edged 100mm gutters at high speeds will quickly find out how good your suspension really is, the impulse Force scales logarithmically over extremely short timescales, 0.001 to 0.01 seconds, generating shaft velocities up to 10m/s. I have my doubts that the KDSS can react quickly enough under these conditions. If it can then the KDSS engineers can pat themselves on the back for a job well done!

                      Have you loaded you Prado in the rear with an additional 500kg and performed a simple pitching test? If you haven't you should!

                      Best

                      Mark
                      A Hydraulic sway bar that does what ?
                      Did we not already make it clear KDSS works with springs and shocks, Yes I have read about your custom valving sounds great can't comment on how it rides as I'm not silly enough to assume without experiencing it personally, paper is simply that paper.

                      Why would I want to drive over a 100mm hard edge gutter at high speed ? Not only is that silly but also pointless as I never set this up to go slamming hard edge gutters.

                      As per my original statement On and off road the ride quality is excellent.

                      Mark you seem like a bright guy what is it you are trying to say
                      Non KDSS vehicles with the same springs and shocks ride better than ones fitted with KDSS...

                      Have I loaded up for a pitch test ? No,

                      I have pushed it off-road to see what it handled like and found there was no pitch issues. Also find it handles washouts and speed humps very nicely in deed

                      Prior to all the piss taking I genuinely offered you to come see for your self, but no stress man
                      As I said on with the show
                      Phs
                      Senior Member
                      Last edited by Phs; 17-11-2017, 10:10 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        No one is saying stock without kdss is better than stock with. The question is how does good aftermarket compare to kdss for those of us who dont have kdss. More relevant now that kdss seems to be reserved for the kakadu only.
                        My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Hey Phs,

                          No piss taking, I'm genuinely interested! ...and I like your KDSS passion!

                          I'm gunna pull you right up over the gutter thing though. If you haven't driven over hard edged obstacles with your suspension then you don't know what your suspension can do or what the limits of it are. It's not silly, this is a standard test for all automotive suspension manufacturers. There are much harsher tests!

                          Everyone (me included) has a subjective opinion about what can be deemed as "excellent" ride quality. There is even a range of suspension frequencies for individual parts of the human body that manufacturers test transmissibility curves over.

                          I am saying unequivocally that KDSS is not the suspension unicorn that you believe it to be. Having driven KDSS myself they are an improvement over SOME after market shock absorbers, but not ALL. That is also my subjective opinion.

                          I like the aims of KDSS, a more kinematically controlled movement of the sprung mass....which the driver perceives as a comfortable/cushy/well handling/even "excellent" ride quality. This is also the aim of high critically damped shocks...minimal cycling of the sprung mass.

                          Feedback wise I would say KDSS masks the limitations of your shock absorbers and subsequently your tires. Both are connected in the dance of the quarter car model. You can push a KDSS vehicle hard....just like you can push a high critically damped non-KDSS vehicle hard....but you will quickly find yourself at your tire limits in both because of this.

                          Your statement that "Non KDSS vehicles with the same springs and shocks ride better than ones fitted with KDSS..." is a strongly blanket and subjective statement. I can go down to Fulcrum and purchase a multiple setting rear swaybar that can run similar torsional settings to KDSS under different driving settings. That swaybar doesn't cost anything like KDSS....and those critically damped shocks can react faster than your KDSS.

                          I think you might be pleasantly surprised to find what a high critically damped Prado on the OEM swaybar can do.

                          No stress, come for a drive next week, my pleasure!

                          Best

                          Mark
                          2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by mjrandom View Post
                            No one is saying stock without kdss is better than stock with. The question is how does good aftermarket compare to kdss for those of us who dont have kdss. More relevant now that kdss seems to be reserved for the kakadu only.
                            That was my reason for asking. Good to see some passion in the debate.

                            I'm really interested in the off road aspects. I didn't buy my prado to drive fast around corners on bitumen, apart from being a bit pointless in a 2.5t vehicle with high centre of gravity, the tyres seem to be the limiting factor.
                            [B]Steve[/B]

                            2010 Silver GXL Prado 150, D4D Auto, with a few non standard bits

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Great thread krypto, really interesting discussion. Would love to see some comparison tests.
                              150 GXL - ARB bar, Winch, 9" spots, rhino rack, 32" LED bar, Snorkel, 2" lift, AT's, Dual batts, UHF, 40L fridge, KAON cargo barrier - rear door table

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Whitey View Post
                                Hey Phs,

                                No piss taking, I'm genuinely interested! ...and I like your KDSS passion!

                                I'm gunna pull you right up over the gutter thing though. If you haven't driven over hard edged obstacles with your suspension then you don't know what your suspension can do or what the limits of it are. It's not silly, this is a standard test for all automotive suspension manufacturers. There are much harsher tests!

                                Everyone (me included) has a subjective opinion about what can be deemed as "excellent" ride quality. There is even a range of suspension frequencies for individual parts of the human body that manufacturers test transmissibility curves over.

                                I am saying unequivocally that KDSS is not the suspension unicorn that you believe it to be. Having driven KDSS myself they are an improvement over SOME after market shock absorbers, but not ALL. That is also my subjective opinion.

                                I like the aims of KDSS, a more kinematically controlled movement of the sprung mass....which the driver perceives as a comfortable/cushy/well handling/even "excellent" ride quality. This is also the aim of high critically damped shocks...minimal cycling of the sprung mass.

                                Feedback wise I would say KDSS masks the limitations of your shock absorbers and subsequently your tires. Both are connected in the dance of the quarter car model. You can push a KDSS vehicle hard....just like you can push a high critically damped non-KDSS vehicle hard....but you will quickly find yourself at your tire limits in both because of this.

                                Your statement that "Non KDSS vehicles with the same springs and shocks ride better than ones fitted with KDSS..." is a strongly blanket and subjective statement. I can go down to Fulcrum and purchase a multiple setting rear swaybar that can run similar torsional settings to KDSS under different driving settings. That swaybar doesn't cost anything like KDSS....and those critically damped shocks can react faster than your KDSS.

                                I think you might be pleasantly surprised to find what a high critically damped Prado on the OEM swaybar can do.

                                No stress, come for a drive next week, my pleasure!

                                Best

                                Mark
                                We'll have to catch up for a beverage when I'm back in Brisbane, Mark. I have a rather fat VX which sounds like it needs some of your thoughts to be input into its suspension!

                                Regards,
                                SandStorm.au
                                1996 3.4L GXL Manual in Crystal Pearl - [B]SOLD[/B]

                                2014 D4D VX in Silver Pearl with: 265/65/18 BFG KO2's, Safari snorkel, ARB Summit & Kaymar barwork, ARB UVP, Roadsafe recovery points, Superior Engineering 2in lift, OL diff breathers, ICOM IC-450, Redarc Dual Battery, RhinoRack Backbone, MaxTrax and more to come...

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