Tyre Rotation - which is the correct method?

[Jacto Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jacto]

Tyre rotation diagonally

Hi Castoy, Yeah I have a fair idea of how tyres are made seeing as I am speaking from 30 plus years of working in the tyre industry specialising in everything from racing tyres in the early 70's through to currently operating my own business training tyre servicing personnel in the automotive, truck and earthmover industries. My experience included many countless hours of disecting tyres (making several thin radially and longitudinal cross-sections) to analyse what had caused failures in the tyres, technical visits to tyre manufacturing facilities in Japan, Argentina and Australia (Bridgestone and Firestone) and currently 11 years in my own business training tyre fitters and also investigating motor vehicle accidents where tyre failure was a mitigating factor. I am not claiming that the tyre will definitely fail, only that I have known for warranties to be denied because of diagonal rotation and my philosophy is that I do not recommend diagonal rotation. Sorry if there is some confusion.

[PeteS Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeteS]

Hi Jacto

Thanks for your valuable input on this matter.

I apologise now for the long winded waffle below but it really p#@ses me how after all these years there are so many conflicting opinions etc of people we trust with our vehicles and especially tyres.

Surely the tyre manufacturers can stipulate something so basic as the tyre rotation method? The manufacturers recommendations then become the benchmark for our safety, ensuring we maintain the products warranty etc.

Our insurance companies will always look for a way out of any claim, especially if it is considered we contributed to the accident by poor maintenance, bald tyres etc. We are therefore bound to follow the 'manufacturers' recommendations surely?

Dunlop Grandtreks have been used for a loooooooong time now on Prado and many other Toyotas. The Prado manual recommends diaogonal tyre rotation (every 5,00km). This recommendation must have been done from recommendation from Dunlop surely?

Also I'm sure Toyota & Dunlop would have been involved in a large number of tyre warranty claims and accident investigations over the years. Resultant from this there must be compelling evidence and findings, including that from coroners.

Dunlop and Toyota would not dare to stray from what then becomes common knowledge for fear of future litigation.

On my 1st 10k service the Toyota Service dealer did not follow the Toyota manual and wanted to swap the tyres front to back. I had to ask them especially to follow the manual. I even numbered my tyres before I had the service to ensure they did the rotation correctly.

Wow, you reckon I feel much better now :?: ........................ WRONG :evil:
I'm still totally confused and frustrated TRYING to do know what to do to ensure my families, and the other road users around me, safety.

(To be honest, I do feel a little bit better by tapping the keys to get the frustration off my chest for a while) :roll:

Sorry for the dribble guys.

Cheers

PeteS



Woah is me

[Chippy Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chippy]

Don't stress about the dribble - I agree totally. :x

Jacto is in the industry and is supported by testing and evidence.
Toyota and Dunlop put out a manual that says, "you must do this or you give us a opportunity to void the warranty".

What gives ?

[soapbox] We - the family bloke, Prado owner, tax payer etc - do our research and do our best to protect our loved ones (which includes hunting out the best advice on forums like this). [/soapbox]

I must admit - my old man taught me, when I got my first 1969 HK sedan (161 and 2 spd powerglide tranny) that the crossply razor blades should be rotated diagonally to even out the wear. This has been my common practice ever since. I reckon it's more a case of not knowing - no Toyota service manager comes out and explains things like this.

Thanks Jacto.

Cheers
Chippy

[Jacto Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jacto]

diagonal rotation

Hi guys thanks for your feedback.
Chippy, with your old cross ply tyres the construction of the tyre is such that there are several layers of nylon cords crossing each other at an angle up to about 80 degrees (if I can work out how to insert pictures I will put some on the post) and this did not generally make any difference if they were diagonally rotated.

The radial tyre generally has one layer of cord only, whether it be steel, nylon or kevlar or whatever is the monthly flavour, that runs radially around the tyre at 90 degrees to the bead (detailed in previous post).

Tyre technology is also rapidly advancing and where my knowledge has basically been extracted from Bridgestone, Firestone, Goodyear and Dunlop, it may well be that other manufacturers will no doubt have different construction methods. It was interesting when I went to Japan that the tyre facility I visited had a sample of every other tyre manufacturer's product in their laboratory very carefully disected into small pieces so they could try and stay above their oppositions' technology and I have no doubt that every other manufacturer does the same thing.

On the subject of Toyota and Dunlop, yes they do collaborate extensively and there is a consideration that they are the experts, but remember that they also recommend a tyre pressure of 190kpa (27psi) for the Prado and we know that this pressure is a load of rubbish and if adhered to then we can expect poor life out of the Grantreks. Now I am no great lover of Dunlop tyres and I would never fit an Australian made Dunlop to any of my vehicles but the Japanese Grandtreks to me are fantastic on the bitumen. I have just this minute measured the tread depths of the tyres on my Prado, they started with 8.2mm of tread and have currently got 7.3mm on front and 7.6mm on rear, are wearing perfectly flat (I measure outside shoulder, centre and inner shoulder using a digital tread depth gauge). Fronts have worn less than 1mm in 14,000kms. I calculated usable tread at 6.6mm (8.2mm - 1.6mm) 1.6mm is legal tread depth by law. My tyres are calculating to give me 102,000kms on the front.

Just to bear insult to injury about the Grandtrek knockers, wheel alignment has not been touched and tyres have not yet been rotated and I operate them at 36psi all round, checked weekly with a digital gauge! so there you go but I will be seeking alternatives before I go to the Cape next year (vehicle will have clocked up around 80,000kms by then)

[Grandeman Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Grandeman]

Re: diagonal rotation

the Japanese Grandtreks to me are fantastic on the bitumen.

I agree - if only there was a tyre that was both fantastic off road and on... dream on... I suppose there must always be a degree of compromise to be made in this department.

The man from Coopers told me today that their ATR is the best tyre on the market that is closest to that ideal -- that drives on road as well as the Grandtreks and offroad with a much higher degree of puncture resistance and traction (whilst also retaining Prado's standard tyre size) - now I suppose he would say that.

I wonder whether he could he be close to being right or is he closer to being full of sh*t? :roll:

[CASTOY Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close CASTOY]

Hi Jacto,

Sorry if you thought I was having a go at you. I too had been in the tyre industry for nearly 20 years & like you spent a lot of time disecting tyres of all sizes upto TBR products. Unfortunately never had oppurtunity to get into the big stuff.

Hey you didnt use to work for Bridgestone?

Regards Castoy

[Jacto Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jacto]

Diagonal rotation

Hey Castoy, she's right mate, got thicker skin than that.

Yes worked for Bridgestone from 1970-1976 before the Japs took over then again for the Japs from 1983-1989, then again from 1991-1996 then had a stint with South Pacific Tyres - Goodyear/Dunlop from 1998 - 2001 but the bulk of my work from 1996 has been running my own business as a registered training organisation as explained previously training fitters to do the right thing, investigations into accidents and writing resource materials for TAFE and the Automotive training board.

Probably the worst case I ever saw of radial cord laying over in a set direction was when we disected a truck tyre with a cut at 90 degrees to the bead expecting to be able to cut between the radial cords and we actually cut through eight cords they were layed over that much.

Anyway all opinions are valued but just trying to keep up with technological changes in tyres wears you out quicker than the rubber they're made of!

Are you still in the tyre game?

[blw Member Find all posts View Profile Close blw]

"My tyres are calculating to give me 102,000kms on the front"

Hi Jacto

I am lucky to get 35000km out of the orginal set of Dunlops. A number of tyre dealers assure me that it is the round abouts that cause all the problems... how many roundabouts exist in Singleton maybe they are right :roll:

I have checked so many Prado's in car parks around Sydney and most have had excessive wear on the passenger front tyre. There are a number of people on this forum that also experience this wear.

I am thinking of heading to the Hawkesbury to sort out my alignment (as per Drew's experience) before I put my next set of tyres on the car.

[Jacto Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Jacto]

Diagonal Rotation

Hi blw, Singleton only has one roundabout and I know what you will reply to that but I do a hell of a lot of work in Sydney (which I hate) and I am there for probably 40 weeks of the year. Car has only just clocked over 14,000k's and is 3 months old, out of that three months it has spent 8 weeks in Sydney. I am also doing trips to Central Queensland, which will do the tyres good on the wear rate.

Out of the 14,000k's 3,500 of them have been to Qld and the bulk of the rest of them in Sydney/Newcastle. The Prado is always driven like a sedan and is never hanging around (always seem to be in a hurry to get somewhere, in the blood I think). I also don't think that I will get within a bulls roar of over a hundred thousand k's and I've already decided that Coopers will go on it for replacement.
Cheers

[Fazza Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Fazza]

Hi Jacto



Surely the tyre manufacturers can stipulate something so basic as the tyre rotation method? The manufacturers recommendations then become the benchmark for our safety, ensuring we maintain the products warranty etc.

Our insurance companies will always look for a way out of any claim, especially if it is considered we contributed to the accident by poor maintenance, bald tyres etc. We are therefore bound to follow the 'manufacturers' recommendations surely?

Dunlop Grandtreks have been used for a loooooooong time now on Prado and many other Toyotas. The Prado manual recommends diaogonal tyre rotation (every 5,00km). This recommendation must have been done from recommendation from Dunlop surely?

Also I'm sure Toyota & Dunlop would have been involved in a large number of tyre warranty claims and accident investigations over the years. Resultant from this there must be compelling evidence and findings, including that from coroners.

Dunlop and Toyota would not dare to stray from what then becomes common knowledge for fear of future litigation.

Cheers

PeteS

Woah is me

PeteS,
Just to keep you tapping the keys,

A chilling reminder of some tyre & car manufactures doing the right thing or not?? and some close to home Re- Toyota.

Three articles to read, the first was a few years ago regarding Firestone & Ford.
www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetai ... =1813&vf=1

www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetai ... =2439&vf=1

Some years before that a lot of tyre companies had similar problems with tread seperation, the likes of Goodyear, Dunlop, Kleber (were are they now) just to name a few.

Next a bit closer to home, Toyota. For some reason? the latest article has mysteriously disappeared from the internet, but it alluded to a lot of Directors from Toyota Japan being dismissed as a result of this small problem!!!

www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=13867

I believe there were some road deaths after that article? which led to some of the directors demise.

Who can we trust.

Lets have some better thoughts (Where to go this weekend)

Fazza :roll:

[PeteS Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeteS]

Geez Fazza

Hope you are not trying to wind me up again
I will digest your post when I have a moment over the next few days.
The little bit I have looked at seems very interesting.

Also found this link on ExplorOz forum. I did not know about such a site before.
http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html

Cheers
PeteS

[Fazza Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Fazza]

PeteS,
No I wasn,t trying to wind you up.
Carbibles is an excellent site very informative but I might as we give you more food for thought.

In a past life I was in the motor trade for 47 years, with the later 27 owning a Specialist Wheel Alignment & Independent Tyre Business (probably the last truly Independent)
So in supporting a lot of Jacto,s last few postings, here is something to think about.

HOW AMAZING ARE YOU TYRES

Every rotation of a tyre the contact area, steel belting, cords, fillers etc , HAVE TO SPEED UP, SLOW DOWN & SPEED UP ONCE AGAIN, not to mention what the sidewalls are going through. All of this is generating heat.
It has to do this regardless of the load, road temperature, side forces e.g. cornering, rocks, pot holes & corrigations.
It also has to contend with neglect, sitting in one spot for to long whilst owner is lucky enough to be overseas on a holiday. It has to put up with low tyre pressures, VERY LOW TYRE PRESSURES when owner decides to drive on sand & becomes bogged.
Or when traveling across the Simpson Dessert with heavy loads or sometimes very high pressures on a hot day with a 2 ton load.
Even sitting parked half on half of a Curb. Heavy braking & acceleration.

Now with a Standard Prado 265/65x17 tyre.
It rotates 424 Revs per kilometer
So if you get, lets say 80,000 Kilometers out of your tyres that equates to 33920000 revolutions in the tyres life or that is how may times that tyre has to deform & recover just in the load area alone.

Now that is a lot of flexing & at the end of the day we still expect it to be perfectly round.

Just a small reason for not supporting swapping tyres from side to side.

But I must admit tyres have come a long way lately.

One more point re-not cross swapping.
A lot of vehicles run directional tyres. Cross rotation a disaster, rather than expel water they draw it in, all good for aquaplaning.
You would be amazed how many people do not know that their cars are running on directional tyres. There are a few directional 4x4 tyres.

Those black things that we so often neglect are really amazing, I don't know of anything else that can deform quite as much & yet stay much like it was when first purchased except for the lack of grip.

Salute to Charles Goodyear & John Dunlop.

Fazza, 07 GXL D4D Auto Dunlop AT20's

[PeteS Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeteS]

Thanks Fazz

Some very goods points you raise about those AMAZING TYRES.

Another one of those many things we talk about what "they don't do" rather than also consider "how much they actually do".

The topic has received some very good thought and responses, especially from those with first hand knowledge such as Jacto & yourself.

Jacto made me think about the tyre pressure vs vehicle placard on the door. Here I am sprouting I want to comply with the manufactureres recommendations and I run my tyres at 34psi, nearly 6psi over the placard recommended rating. Mmmmmmmmmm

I must admit this whole soapbox/confusion thing started for me when the vehicle was delivered to me new with 60psi in each tyre. The Toyota service department told me they put in 34 psi. Another damn conflict.....

I'm still not sure which way to go with rotation etc however the information provided herein so far has been excellent food for though and I will mull over it all and reach some form of consensus.

Thanks
PeteS

[blw Member Find all posts View Profile Close blw]

Hi PeteS

Not sure of the situation, however the pressures quoted would be rated at cold tempurature. When setting your pressures, you should ensure that you check them cold or know how to compensate when they are hot...

[PeteS Member Find all posts View Profile Close PeteS]

Hi blw
I always check the tyres cold, doing it before I use the car.
Thanks
PeteS