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  • #16
    Originally posted by spearfish View Post
    2016 Prado 2.8

    Whilst I was there, another 2.8 prado was in the process of doing the same. Except they opted for a 3" turbo back exhaust and "hi flow" DPF.
    Their final run cracked 131kw at the treads.

    The drive home was so much more noticeable. I'm now considering the 3" exhaust and high flow dpf as the next mod. For under $2K in total with the exhaust and remap it's a no-brainer mod.
    I'm very interested in the high flow DPF exhaust .. I've been emailing a couple of places late last year about it coming on song in early 2018 but I didn't think anyone had one yet - can you provide details on who does it? Have 2016GXL too - and more than willing to travel for this one!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Rockhop View Post
      Yes that is a big flaw with chips they trick the factory ECU, is it any surprise so many people have issues with them ?
      to be frank there rubbish, and soon enough they will be gone old outdated substandard technology

      ECU re map done correctly will work all within the factory safety parameters and will not let the motor run into the danger zone
      Sorry to harp on the point, but the manufacturer built in a margin, if you remap the ECU you are diminishing that margin. You cannot make the engine "stronger" with a chip to maintain that margin, and most likely will shorten it's life to some degree. If you are going to play around the edges of the envelope then you must at least have the data to stay inside it. The GE CF34 turbofans that I operated have a full dual channel FADEC (a "super ECU") that is supposed to protect against almost any failure or excedence,. They have autothrottle, autostart, automatic thrust increase if the other one fails, etc, etc; but they still give me a full set of instruments to watch, so I usually see the failure coming and do something about it. Computers are binary, on or off, yes or no, working or broken. Over the years I have avoided several start exceedances because I intervened before the FADEC did. The computer only does something AFTER the exceedance; and every exceedance shortens the engines life by (in the case of these engines) some amount. ie you lose "x" amount of hours/cycles etc., If the aircraft manufacturer doesn't trust this squillion dollar FADEC to always save the day, I don't see why you should trust a cheapar$e car computer to save the tightar$e owner that wouldn't fit the instrumentation . If you want to play, get the data!
      Rant over

      Sorry everyone, but much as I would love to be proven wrong (yeah, naaah, not really ), I don't want to have that smug feeling of "I told you so" when I read about another detonation.
      (Well, maybe just a bit )
      Last edited by t303; 20-03-2018, 06:28 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by t303 View Post

        Sorry to harp on the point, but the manufacturer built in a margin, if you remap the ECU you are diminishing that margin. You cannot make the engine "stronger" with a chip to maintain that margin, and most likely will shorten it's life to some degree. If you are going to play around the edges of the envelope then you must at least have the data to stay inside it. The GE CF34 turbofans that I operated have a full dual channel FADEC (a "super ECU") that is supposed to protect against almost any failure or excedence,. They have autothrottle, autostart, automatic thrust increase if the other one fails, etc, etc; but they still give me a full set of instruments to watch, so I usually see the failure coming and do something about it. Computers are binary, on or off, yes or no, working or broken. Over the years I have avoided several start exceedances because I intervened before the FADEC did. The computer only does something AFTER the exceedance; and every exceedance shortens the engines life by (in the case of these engines) some amount. ie you lose "x" amount of hours/cycles etc., If the aircraft manufacturer doesn't trust this squillion dollar FADEC to always save the day, I don't see why you should trust a cheapar$e car computer to save the tightar$e owner that wouldn't fit the instrumentation . If you want to play, get the data!
        Rant over

        Sorry everyone, but much as I would love to be proven wrong (yeah, naaah, not really ), I don't want to have that smug feeling of "I told you so" when I read about another detonation.
        (Well, maybe just a bit )
        They are tuned to meet emssinons and worst environmental conditions.

        Delete emmsions from a tune and you are saying the motor is going to loose longevity ?

        If the remap is done correctly it is all within the factory safety parameters

        Of course if you up boost and fuel those relevant components will wear at a faster rate
        with a chip you are adding another computer ( non genuin ) splicing into the factory sensor and ECU wiring and then faulsifing information from sensors to the ECU.

        Common issues

        -chip faulty
        -workmanship wiring
        -ECU does not have the information to stop engin running into the danger zone

        Edit,

        I do agree, if you go for numbers you will loose longevity, thow if you can find some one that knows there stuff and you donít want figures a retune can dramatically improve the vehicles drivability with minimal consequence
        Last edited by Rockhop; 20-03-2018, 08:58 PM.

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        • #19
          I had this argument with the safari guy at the Expo on the weekend- I just wanted to buy a snorkle off him and he was pushing me on the "ECU kit" they sell (which is a glorified chip in reality). The only way you get more power out of an internal combustion engine is (all things being equal) by putting more fuel and air into it. However you want to dress this up, that's all these chips or remaps do- Typically they'll either bump up the rail pressure (cheap and nasty), lengthen the time the injector stays open or possibly crank the boost up a bit. As for emissions, it's not sexy, but deleting a system from your 4wd that it's designed to run with is not only against the law, it's pretty selfish from an enviromental and ethical point of view. The reason most of have cars like this is so we can go to places where most people can't- And we should all be doing our part to ensure that not only we can keep going back, but also our kids and grandkids. As a final point, Toyota engineers (and as a trainee engineer I can appreciate the work that's gone into developing this engine) have spent thousands of man hours developing this powerplant- Are you really going to trust your pride and joy to some guy that might not even be qualified as a mechanic loading up a tune from Eastern Europe (because he has no idea how to hack the computer that Toyota put in it) into an engine that's probably worth nearly 10k (I know that the D4D is about 8.8K, no idea about the 2.8 but it's probably even more expensive).

          Also I'd be even more hesitant to do this on a new car- It's a great way to give Toyota a get out of jail free card if your engine/ driveline/ ECU has issues down the track- Play with this sort of thing at your own risk, but don't be deluded by the marketing that there's no downside- There's no such thing as a free lunch.

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          • #20
            Mass produced engines have variances in fit and performance due to tolerances so it is unlikely that any two engines are identical. Better than the old days when tolerances were larger but variations still exist. The tune applied to the ecu is a generic tune, no production engine is individually tuned. One size fits all. For some engines the parameters will be at the maximum or minimum allowed by the design philosophy and conservative state of tune needed for engine longevity. Some not. A dedicated tune which preserves margins at good engineering practice levels can deliver improved performance. Sometimes such tuning compromises emissions without affecting engine life, for example petrol engines run richer to reduce NOx, which reduces power.

            Mostly I am happy to explore tunes using a dynomometer and a competent person. Not at all interested in add on chips because these are just another type of one size fits all but with margins reduced. And it doesn't matter which chip, if you havent tuned the engine under load and watched the results then it is just frigging with the settings one way or another to make more power.

            At the end of the day if the tune is too agressive you can damage the engine and as a minimum affect emissions.

            Your call. I would do neither on a common rail diesel. These engines, and I am referring to all manufacturers, are made with the cheapest bits they can provide. Not enough margin in my view to take the risk and picking up 20kW in 80 is a big big increase.

            Good luck.
            My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic

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            • #21
              When your shop does the tune on the dyno, do they watch the EGT (and I assume they don't simply watch the "just letting you know your engine's cooked" standard temp gauge)? This will have a major effect on how long your engine survives (or not). Prolonged operation north of 750C will eventually melt pistons or change the properties of the metals (pistons, valves, head, headgaskets) permanently, and others more qualified than I have reservations about allowing alloy head coolant temps above 100C. Unless the tech is measuring it he has absolutely NO IDEA whether he is approaching the structural limits of the parts involved. Is he now only relying on the "protections" built into the ECU which, incidentally, he is in the process of reprogramming? Taking it to the extreme, "Undocumented Features" in modified code can have unpredictable outcomes (ask any programmer). Also, unless he hitches up your 2.5T caravan and drags it up the nearest range he can't be sure how it will behave under your "normal" usage. When your EGT readout takes off under load it makes spinning pokie machine numbers look like slo-mo playback. Guys, I have been observing my EGTs for almost 10yrs now; it is scary and surprising how fast (and why) they go redline!
              .
              There is one immutable rule of the tuning of any engine (and especially diesel): if you want more power, you have to burn more fuel. Power doesn't come from anything else; just burn all the fuel with the correct amount of air and move the charge through the combustion chamber as fast and efficiently as possible. If you want more power, do more of the preceding! That's it, no magic involved; and of course if you burn more fuel, you will have to deal with more HEAT!. I can't imagine that any manufacturer decides that they are going to nobble their engine to save a bit of fuel: "Yes our 2.8L engine only produces 50HP, but it only burns 4L/100Km". I am fairly certain they tuned it as far as they could whilst making it reliable enough to get out of the warranty and maybe twice around the clock. If the tuner is finding much more power then he has to be burning more fuel to do it. And that produces (all together now).....more HEAT!

              My last few words then I will cease and desist.

              To ensure the longevity of your "tuned" engine:

              YOU NEED TO KNOW THE EGT (and coolant) TEMPS!!!!!!!
              Please fit the necessary instrumentation, I implore you!


              over and out,
              Steve
              Last edited by t303; 21-03-2018, 04:58 PM.

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              • #22
                Tuning diesels via ET is a basic fundamental.

                Any tuned Diesel should have boost and ET gauges

                ETs need to be taken form the manifold not dump as the waste gate makes reading Dump pipe temps a little hard

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                • #23
                  From the UNICHIP website

                  The EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature) unit is an optional extra normally used on diesel engines to control the EGT to safe limits. With this option installed the power can be safely increased even more and if the EGT goes too high the Unichip will automatically trim back the power to get the EGT back into the safe range.
                  2016 2.8l 6spd Auto Prado Crystal Pearl VX, Dual Battery, Pro Racks, Towbar.

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                  • #24
                    Unichip have over boost limiters as well, seen both over boost and ET safety systems fail.

                    the factory ECU cannot help because it thinks the engine is running as per normal.

                    Give them a call and ask have they ever had chips back from users with these issues that complained because they had gauges fitted

                    what about the vehicles with no gauges
                    I am sure there is a fair graveyard of chipped D4Ds and probably tuned ones too

                    Any one ever ask why there is no market for for chips in petroleum vehicles

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                    • #25
                      Yeah I know, but I can't help myself

                      The DTRONIC on mine is a Unichip rebadged. I can categorically state that it does NOT limit the EGT itself, nor apparently effect any change in the factory ECU for protection, at least not on a 1KZ-TE. Perhaps there is a pin available in the loom to wind back the map? Anyone have intimate knowledge of Unichips? They pretty much admit that it can't protect the engine unless you fit an EGT probe. Can anyone with Techstream confirm whether EGT is available in the datastream? . Unless the factory ECU measures the EGT (and I contend that it doesn't) then the manufacturer must be relying on the safety margins designed in to prevent exceedances. Play at your peril.

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                      • #26
                        Yes 1gd-ftv factory ecu measures ETs

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Rockhop View Post
                          Yes 1gd-ftv factory ecu measures ETs
                          Interesting.... can you see the probe in the exhaust? Have they placed it pre or post turbo?
                          Edit: never mind, I googled it. It looks to be post turbo in the dump pipe (such as it is on this engine, what a plumbing nightmare!) so you would have to take into account the temp drop across the turbocharger. They are more interested in DPF temps than watching combustion chamber temp; I suspect they have finally been forced to fit one for emissions control.
                          Last edited by t303; 21-03-2018, 09:02 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by t303 View Post

                            Interesting.... can you see the probe in the exhaust? Have they placed it pre or post turbo?
                            Edit: never mind, I googled it. It looks to be post turbo in the dump pipe (such as it is on this engine, what a plumbing nightmare!) so you would have to take into account the temp drop across the turbocharger. They are more interested in DPF temps than watching combustion chamber temp; I suspect they have finally been forced to fit one for emissions control.
                            There are 3 ET probes

                            The ECU will thow a code and go into limp mode if they are not within there safe temp range

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                            • #29
                              I probably should have mentioned where they are Oops ...........

                              2 on the DPF and 1 about 30mm from the Turbo exhaust housing

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