Gearbox Whine - Torque Converter?

[GeorgeSA Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close GeorgeSA]

I recently bought a secondhand 2004 VX 4.0 Prado - 210,000km on the clock. There is a whine from the gearbox (at least, from inside the car it seems to be coming from there) - I have taken it to two different mechanics and both say that the whine is normal. They both said that it is the torque converter - one suggested that the sound insulation around it might be worn/old/gone. Does this make sense?

The whine is only audible at lower speeds (up to 60km/h) and the pitch seems to be directly related to gear changes - as the engine revs up, the whine pitch gets higher and when it shifts down a gear, the whine pitch drops. In 3rd and 4th, there is no audible whine at all. I've done about 4000km in the car since I bought it and it hasn't got any better/worse.

Not being a mechanic, I'd love to hear your thoughts as to what this might be and whether it's serious or not! I have seen one or two other threads on this forum which suggest that it's nothing to worry about and that an oil change (gearbox and transfer case) might sort the problem out. All the oil levels are 100%, but I'm not sure when they were last changed.

Our local Toyota dealer (South Africa) is pretty small and doesn't have the best reputation - they also say they don't see many Prados (which I took to mean they have no idea what they are doing with this car). Hence why I'm looking for a second opinion here!

If anyone has any thoughts/suggestions, I'd be very grateful!

Thansks

[waltec Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close waltec]

Re: Gearbox Whine - Torque Converter?

Hi George

What colour is the ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid). It should be clean and red. If its dirty, brown or black, it definately needs replacing. Toyota recomends replacement every 40k. I bought my TD auto with just under 160k on the clock, and the first thing I did with it was book it in to my mechanic for its 160k service, as a part of this the ATF replaced.

As my Prado approached 200k I noticed the auto wasn't as responsive, and it just didn't feel right. I ment to mention it to my mechanic at its 200k service, but due to work I didn't drop the Prado off and forgot about it. When I collected it, he informed me that he had flushed the auto and replaced the ATF with synthetic fluid. It has only done 15k since this service (with no problems) and I will be interested to see how this fluid behaves as it approaches 40k.

The performance of an auto is very dependant upon the fluid quality, replacing the ATF would certainly be the quickest, cheapest and easiest place to start. Thats where I would start.

Matt

[GeorgeSA Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close GeorgeSA]

Re: Gearbox Whine - Torque Converter?

Hi George

What colour is the ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid). It should be clean and red. If its dirty, brown or black, it definately needs replacing. Toyota recomends replacement every 40k. I bought my TD auto with just under 160k on the clock, and the first thing I did with it was book it in to my mechanic for its 160k service, as a part of this the ATF replaced.

As my Prado approached 200k I noticed the auto wasn't as responsive, and it just didn't feel right. I ment to mention it to my mechanic at its 200k service, but due to work I didn't drop the Prado off and forgot about it. When I collected it, he informed me that he had flushed the auto and replaced the ATF with synthetic fluid. It has only done 15k since this service (with no problems) and I will be interested to see how this fluid behaves as it approaches 40k.

The performance of an auto is very dependant upon the fluid quality, replacing the ATF would certainly be the quickest, cheapest and easiest place to start. Thats where I would start.

Matt

Thanks for the advice Matt - I'll do that asap. Do you think that might eliminate/reduce the whine??

George

[GeorgeSA Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close GeorgeSA]

Re: Gearbox Whine - Torque Converter?

OK - the transmission fluid is fine - it's red and clean and is at the correct level (in fact it is a little over full). I haven't changed the fluid because it seems fine... Is there anything else that might be causing the whine or should I just ignore it?

Thanks for the help thusfar!

[GeorgeSA Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close GeorgeSA]

Re: Gearbox Whine - Torque Converter?

OK - a quick update.

A gearbox specialist has listened to the whine and he says it's definitely not normal. The box is being removed and inspected on Monday.

I have a feeling though that there may be some other factors at play here:

I recently (a few days ago) changed all the tyres - four new Pirelli Scorpion ATR (excellent, by the way) - and the whine seems to have diminished slightly. The old rear tyres were badly worn, while the front were fine - perhaps the different tread depths were causing some abnormal wear....?

I also wonder whether a simple transmission fluid change (as recommended above) would have done the trick. However, the gearbox guy was fairly certain that a bearing might need to be replaced, so I'm erring on the side of caution! Given the vehicle's mileage (212000kms) I'd rather pay the labour charge to get the thing inspected now than have the gearbox pack up in the middle of nowhere and end up costing a fortune! I suppose I'm paying for peace of mind.....

Hopefully by Monday evening/Tuesday morning, I'll have an answer!

[waltec Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close waltec]

Re: Gearbox Whine - Torque Converter?

How did you go George???

Mines done about the same ks, but is still nice and quiet, but as you say it's nice to be sure!

Matt

[GeorgeSA Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close GeorgeSA]

Re: Gearbox Whine - Torque Converter?

How did you go George???

Mines done about the same ks, but is still nice and quiet, but as you say it's nice to be sure!

Matt

Not well...... It turns out I bought the car from a complete ********. The gearbox was opened to find that it had been worked on before - they had replaced one of the four gears (I'm afraid my lack of technical knowledge may let me down at this point...) but with duff parts, so the gears were not "meshing" properly. They have now been replaced. All four of them. The torque converter was full of aluminium filings - that has been opened and cleaned.

Now they've discovered that oil pump(?) in the transfer case is finished. The previous owner had work done it on - apparently the bearings in the transfer case are brand new, but he didn't want to change the oil pump(?) and so its casing has fallen apart and is spitting filings all over the place (probably as far as the torque converter). The gears(?) for the oil pump are also worn beyond repair. The necessary parts are not that expensive, but there are none in South Africa, so my car is sitting waiting for the replacement parts. They say it could be two weeks........

Basically, I bought the car from a dishonest **** who knew about all these problems and thought he'd hand them on to me...... I suppose it's my own fault for not investigating properly, but it would be nice if people were a bit more honest about these things!

If I ever buy a car with that kind of mileage again (or run a car that long) I would seriously think about opening the gearbox and transfer case and get them inspected by someone who really knows what they're doing. It might be a lot of labour, but the potential saving is huge - although I had a very noticeable whine, if I hadn't done anything about it (and I very nearly didn't), I would be looking at a blown transfer case for starters.....

If anyone knows where I can get aftermarket parts (good ones) for a transfer case in a hurry in South Africa, I'd be really grateful!!

[sparewheel Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close sparewheel]

Re: Gearbox Whine - Torque Converter?

Shucks buddy This could have been my story, I bought my 120 as a demo back in 2004 also picked up a whine and took back to selling dealer they diagnosed a faulty power steering pump and replaced that then the aircon compressor, they replaced twice.
they then found a idler bearing noisey and replaced that.Then found they where listning to wrong noise Bear in mind they now had my "new" Prado for 1 1/2 months. So now the fun started they reffered it to TSA and took it to Rand stadium Toyota who overhauled the rear diff twice then replaced the centre portion. They then overhauled the front diff and then replaced it. The car then whent to Toyota again to the R&D they drove out 1 full 180 liters of my petrol in this time and said it was the transfer box that they insisted they would overhaul. The noise was still there and they threw up their hands refusing to repair the gearbox they insisted that the noise was not "TERMINAL" and extended the warranty by 2 years.
I still had a whine in the gearbox.
Later I fitted 5 new BF Goodrich tyres and the noise was gone. The tyres on the car were the std bridgestones in front that the stealer fitted on purches and dunlops at the rear all were basically new at the time.
I hope I dont find the gearbox stuffed as yours was, I will do an oil change ASAP just to be on the safe side.
Is you Prado not perhaps gold? as Toyota gave me a gold one to drive that also had the same noise after they claimed the noise came std.
As far as i can understand the gearbox uses ATF and the transfer box std gear oil so they are seperate parts and so should not become contaminated from each other.

[GeorgeSA Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close GeorgeSA]

Re: Gearbox Whine - Torque Converter?

Shucks buddy This could have been my story, I bought my 120 as a demo back in 2004 also picked up a whine and took back to selling dealer they diagnosed a faulty power steering pump and replaced that then the aircon compressor, they replaced twice.
they then found a idler bearing noisey and replaced that.Then found they where listning to wrong noise Bear in mind they now had my "new" Prado for 1 1/2 months. So now the fun started they reffered it to TSA and took it to Rand stadium Toyota who overhauled the rear diff twice then replaced the centre portion. They then overhauled the front diff and then replaced it. The car then whent to Toyota again to the R&D they drove out 1 full 180 liters of my petrol in this time and said it was the transfer box that they insisted they would overhaul. The noise was still there and they threw up their hands refusing to repair the gearbox they insisted that the noise was not "TERMINAL" and extended the warranty by 2 years.
I still had a whine in the gearbox.
Later I fitted 5 new BF Goodrich tyres and the noise was gone. The tyres on the car were the std bridgestones in front that the stealer fitted on purches and dunlops at the rear all were basically new at the time.
I hope I dont find the gearbox stuffed as yours was, I will do an oil change ASAP just to be on the safe side.
Is you Prado not perhaps gold? as Toyota gave me a gold one to drive that also had the same noise after they claimed the noise came std.
As far as i can understand the gearbox uses ATF and the transfer box std gear oil so they are seperate parts and so should not become contaminated from each other.

It sounds like these 2004 models might have a bug somewhere!

To confirm the latest news:

They replaced all three sets of four planetary gears, replaced the oil pump casing and gearing in the transfer case and opened and cleaned the torque converter.

The noise is still there. It is definitely coming from the drive train and not the diffs - the whine changes as the gears change. The mechanic (not Toyota, but he REALLY knows what he's up to) says he's 90% certain the whine is coming from a particular gear (or two) in the transfer case. However, he has inspected the transfer case, gearbox and torque converter from top to bottom and cannot find any signs of wear or damage of any kind. He's also certain it's not "terminal". Although the whine is audible, it's not intrusive in any way and I'm happy that all is now well. And I have also changed all the tyres (just because they were worn) - no change.

Not sure about the oil, but I was under the impression that the box, transfer case and torque converter used the same oil...... If you do have trouble with the box, I can recommend the guys I used - very very good and not expensive!

[sparewheel Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close sparewheel]

Re: Gearbox Whine - Torque Converter?

Just been going through invoices seems I made a note that some work was done through Toyota by Gearbox and Diff centre, Leonard was the contact person. Just be sure they don"t damage the centre diff lock actuator as mine filled up with oil due to a damaged oil seal and started to leak oil, so I took the plastic cover off and proceeded to pull the box off very simple. I then took the damaged seal off and tried to find a replacement, supprise the seal is not a standard size so went to dealer who informed me the seal is not available and the part costs R6k. Started chatting to a technician and he had one that was damaged from off roading fished out seal and told me it won't help, as I had lost the timming for the diff lock.
After much head scratching I got hold of another prado and took photos of gear timming and re assembled.
so far so good my car has done now 130 000km so in essence took 100 000km and 6 years to sort out the gearbox whine.
I will just s**t my self if it turns out my gearbox is now also filled with bits from the transfer box.

[sparewheel Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close sparewheel]

Re: Gearbox Whine - Torque Converter?

If you used ATF in the transfer box drain and fill with 75w80 gearoil there is a drain plug and a filler plug on the rear case (24 mm) maybe that will cure your noise.

[GeorgeSA Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close GeorgeSA]

Re: Gearbox Whine - Torque Converter?

If you used ATF in the transfer box drain and fill with 75w80 gearoil there is a drain plug and a filler plug on the rear case (24 mm) maybe that will cure your noise.

I'm probably wrong then - I didn't do the work and I'm sure the guy who did knows what he's doing..... Perhaps I'll phone him!