D4D charging voltage

[ploth Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close ploth]

Strange Leachy - if anyone wants to know who I am or wants to know about my 'vested interests' they are free to email me.

And as stated it is not unsupported advice - there is much support for what I have said. There is no 'guise' I saw the post & that people were looking at options - I posted one. I thought your figures were misleading so posted my own so people can make their own decisions.

Your reaction seems over-the-top as does your interpretation of my remarks on alternator wear. But if as it seems you are the 'policeman' of these forums & like to rail newbies like me so be it!

I hate to see people wasting energy and money. And it happens all over the place. Lack of knowledge can kill!

So if you need advice anybody let me know...I don't claim to know it all or have it all right but will help if I can and do have a fair bit of experience in some of the items mentioned in this post

[lofty Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close lofty]

Guys guys guys, sheeez!!

I thought this was meant to be a friendly forum :?

I know nothing about all the facts and figures being quoted here, and to be honest i'm quite happy to keep it that way.

What i do know is that i have a dual battery setup with solenoid, we go camping, 4wding etc, i plug my fridge and fluoro light in, it works, beers are kept cold etc etc.

All is good with the world

[ploth Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close ploth]

Awesome lofty! Less talking - more driving...

Enjoy

[Grey Nomad Member Find all posts View Profile Close Grey Nomad]

D4D battery charging

Hi all
I took my D4D around Oz last year and the battery never used any electrolyte. The little "charge indicator" on the battery always showed fully charged. Toyota have engineered the system so that with frequent and long driving periods the average "Joe" doesn't need to check the battery for boiling dry. The downside of this is that at home where I drive a short distance every second day, I need to keep an eye on the "charge indicator" and give the battery a "tickle up" with my Ctek every 6 weeks or so. I believe that Toyota have good reasons for designing the system in this way but it is not the best for charging a secondary battery. We have to remember that Toyota did NOT have our needs in mind when they designed it. IMHO the best secondary battery solution is an inverter and Ctek charger despite the cost, primarily because the Ctek charger is such a good battery charger.
Regards - John

[plucker Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close plucker]

I think that the charge current on the Prado is probably the right charge for a touring vehicle for limited battery problems. The Prado with it's long range fuel tanks is definately designed as a comfortable tourer. Thus Grey Nomad, whilst touring you will have no worries with the battery.

Ploth, I can understand some of your opinions, but lets not be too hasty believing that the most expensive or the longest warranty is necessarily the best. Some marine sounders are good examples of that. One particular brand which is cheaper, has way more options offers the longest warranty. It is unreliable and regularly needs replacing. Some more expensive brands offer the reliability but not the technology, they are way behind.
The equipment you have listed is probably very good, however it sounds like Leachy has found a cheaper alternative to what you have to offer.
Perhaps it is not as reliable as the stuff you mentioned, or perhaps it is. Perhaps he doesn't use the equipment as often etc. etc.
Ath the end of the day there are a lot of what if's.

Leachy, sounds like you have installed a system that suits your needs and you have informed everyone on here about its benifits. Good work. Although I do think that Ploth's system has some merits also.

I think that both guys have found ideas that suits their individual needs. As to me I am happy to sit on the fence as I dont need this kind of thing yet. I would have to investigate the pros and cons of both setups and not necessarily rely on the price to establish the outcome.
Cheers, happy discussions.

[waltec Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close waltec]

Hi Ploth

You continue to go on about charger efficiency, but no where in the the specs you supplied could I find the efficiency of the Redarc (please correct me if I'm wrong). The redarc system is effectively a 3 stage charger so I would expect it to have similar efficiency to a similar 240v charger.

All 3 of the pieces of equipment that are being compared here use switchmode technology. This technology has had a lot of development in the last 10 yrs since I did my training, with that development exploding in the last 5 yrs (driven by renewable energy use).

End of the day if it works for you good, but others have different requirements, and as such may not suit them.

Also battery charging is not just a simple task of taking energy out and then replacing it. Unfortunately batteries are not a linear device and tend to taper off when approaching fully charged. harder to charge the last 10% than the rest of the charge. That is why inteligent chargers switch to absorbtion mode.

As previously state other like the fact that by using the inverter/charger setup it gives them 240v whilst away and the ablity to charge from 240v when shore power is available.

As for excessive alternator wear, you cant compare it to shoe use, as the only way you can turn off an alternator is to turn off the engine, they are not like an AC compressor, they effectively adjust the current and voltage out of the alternator by varing the voltage on the exciter field winding. Bearing wear will be similar no matter how much currewnt is being drawn. The brushes are also always rubbing, and yes you, may get slightly more wear due to arcing and so forth, but you will also reduce the glazing of the brushes (glazing reduces the efficiency of the alternator).

All in all there are pros ands cons of both systems. Personally I think the Invertor/charger system is overly complicated, and I also try to avoid 240v where possible, but I also think the 7amps is not enough, but luckily I don't have a D4D (at least for this problem, would love 1 fror the power and economy!!!) so I can get away with a good quality intelligent controller.

Another example of different strokes for different folks!!!!

Matt

[ploth Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close ploth]

What happened to the 'friendly forum' Lofty?!



Waltec - I will try to get some specs for you next week about the Redarc. As stated the losses & extra draw even if the charger is 90% efficient are quite large. To this end the Redarc is a much better option. My main point all along is about not wasting energy - the efficiency of the charger is but one point I made.

If the other charger being used is switch mode like the Redarc, then it should be very efficient. Still not quite as efficient as the Redarc (or possibly another switchmode chargers operating at 12v) as it would have to reduce the current from 240AC - but the difference wouldn't be that big. The biggest loss would be the inverter.

You are quite correct about the recent advances in this sort of equipment. I'm sure it won't be too long before a cheaper chinese one will pop up that actually lasts and I will then be promoting that!


As for your comments on alternator wear, however - I have to disagree. If you can proove me wrong you could be a very wealthy man. Increased wear from increased pressure or energy conversion (and heat) is unavoidable and observable in every field.

Here's a quick test for you all. Start your car & wait til it is idling smoothly. Then flick on the high beams. What happens? The revs drop. This is more noticeable the more draw you put through it.

Do you know how much force it takes to do that? Even with smaller motors it takes a lot of resistance. It is your alternator slowing the motor down.
The bearings are spinning the whole time your car is running - but there is very little load on the bearings unless the alternator is charging. The load increases with current

The belt has to be tight enough to handle the friction of the alternator when under full load. This is why larger alternators use gilmer belts as the standard V belt would have to be too tight and wear the bearings out very quickly.

The brushes wear down quicker while under load as well. As I have stated all along the difference between the two systems is not going to burn your alternator out in a matter of months - it would take very large spotties to do that!

I do have an example for you first hand - an old delco remy alternator on a V6 chev in a Landrover (am I allowed to use language like that here?!) - lasted about 3 years of regular day to day use after I bought the car. This included night driving & a lot of beach 'play' taking groups of recovering addicts sandboarding & thrashing etc. The large thermo fans saw a fair bit of work during this time. Anyway alternator died after 3 years...I don't know how long it had been in the car.

I had new brushes put in and I also re-wired the whole car with a dual battery setup (a 660CCA and a Large 200AH deep cycle) & a number of heavy draw items...I went upto Newman & camped for a few weeks in 45 degree heat - the Engel never switched off! It was a harsh 3000km trip and then I was using the car as a daily driver - but not much thrashing. After just 6 months the alternator died. the brushes where totally gone & the bearings were starting to make noises. Needless to say it was not worth me fixing this 50A alternator - I went out & bought a 80A unit. Again (just to avoid being misquoted (again!)) this example is much more extreme than what we are talking about and other factors would affect the results - but the same principle applies.

If you contact car / alternator manufacturers you will find info on this. the more you want to draw the bigger your alternator, better the bearings, wider the fan belt etc etc otherwise they wear out too quickly. But an alternator on a car with no electrics would last for untold years without issues in most cases

The principle can be seen in almost any wearing part (yes even shoes - ie walking as opposed to running!).
Take an angle grinder - basically the same setup with brushes & bearings. Turn it on with no load it may last for 2 years without turning it off and still be going strong. But slow the blade by cutting metal and you won't get 2 months straight running before either a bearing needs replacing or the brushes are totally useless or worse it will catch fire (like 5 of mine have while building rural sheds). Yes the angle grinder gets more sideways force than your alternator and it is doing more revs (approx 7500rpm for some) but the principle is the same.

As I have stated about 4 times now - the differences are not huge on an instantaneous measurement - but over 100,000kms then will add up and I think should be considered by those making an investment in equipment for a car they may want to keep for many more years than the alternator will last!


PLUCKER - I understand your comments on expensive v's best and agree - expensive isn't always best at all.

With items as I have stated (like Redarc, Ctek and Selectronic) however, the facts, figures and experience of many (including myself) is very clear.

Im not saying you are silly to buy anything else - I'm just saying that normally it will cost you more in the long run.
The average Redarc user will get years of trouble free use - if they ever want to sell it they may even get 40-75% of the purchase price back by selling - while the cheap chinese inverter user will have to replace or repair the unit in 2-3 years after wasting energy and wearing their alternator more. Of course for those travelling to remote areas you want reliability over everything else. So again if you insist on wasting energy - by a decent inverter!
But doesn't mean that EVERY inverter user will have trouble - and as stated if you only go off every so often it could be worth the punt!

if you are looking at needing an extra battery really think through what the battery will be used for, it's size, how often, driving times in between, how many kms your car has done, how long you want to keep your car etc etc so you can see what exactly you will need.
Even the best item in the wrong application is useless. For instance if you only do 30 minutes driving in between staying places for two weeks at a time with a fridge running - it is basically useless to have any device to charge while driving.
If there is power available where you are staying I would recommend a CTEK charger or similar to charge off 240v. If there is no power you will need solar power or a geny. Work out how you will use your car & then look at the pros & cons...

[Guest Close Guest]

Gents
I have just joined in.
I have a 2007 DHD. Piranha has just told me that my fancy (and expensive) deep cycle battery is being destroyed because it cannot get enough charge. Piranha wants me to swap the sealed battery for one that will accept charge at a lower voltage. Not crazy about this as a solution.
Inteestingly, a few months ago I bought a Kimberley Kamper. It has 6 small Deep Cycle batteries - totalling 210 ah. KK insistst that, t charge them, the car MUST be pumping at least 14 v. I was told, however, that I'd be OK even though it was understood that the Prado generated only 13.6 v - because the KK has a booster. Hopefully that means I have only been killing my DC battery under the bonnet!
I'll make some inquiries at KK to see what I can find out about the booster in the trailer. Maybe I could put another one under the bonnet. Maybe better, I could move it from the trailer to the car and cover all bases with the one unit.
I'll let you know.

[Steve & Sandra Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve & Sandra]

Just had a week away with new dual battery system, I seen 13.9 volts during the week and after about 6hours of running the voltage would come down 13.3 - 13.6.
Definitely not like the older cars which would give you almost 14.5 volts.
I am still happy though, i was concerned previously with the lower voltages but it seems since fitting the second battery the voltages have come up.
Cheers
Steve