diesel rattle in D4D Prado

[BostonKaos . Find all posts View Profile Close BostonKaos]

It was on like donkey kong in the most polite and mature fashion in this muther wasn't it ;-)

[awd2.0t Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close awd2.0t]

1.7 - f&*k.

I thought the focus was more on the overall Injection Volume, being over 9ish starting to cause issues?

[Baileys Diesel Group Member Find all posts View Profile Close Baileys Diesel Group]

This i agree given that people are adding fuel additives to there fuel?

To every action there "WILL" be a reaction to that action!

EG: Two stroke oil and injector cleaning additives that are corrosive!

#1 Two stroke oil can cause piston rings to stick & clog!... What would the result to the high pressure CRD injector in the long run?

#2 Injector cleaner additives are corrosive in order to break down build ups and contaminate engine oil at the same time!..

#3 If an old injector has distorted slightly then wont this grab the pinital needle when the injector expands from heat and that's not including the additives that people add?

Why is it that the so-called contaminated fuel can get through the injector tip but not past the pinital needle?

So many un-answered questions.

As you know! ...

EG: Denso have been making high press CRD since 1995, have more than 200 subsidiaries and affiliates in 36 countries, employs more than 130,000 people & in 2013 Consolidated global sales that totalled US$38.1 billion & DENSO spent 9.4 percent of its global consolidated sales on research and development!

I am not convinced that Denso have dropped the ball on this one but i am also aware that they aren't the ones adding additives to there fuel or extra filters that can plug sooner and increase negative pressure to the high pressure fuel pump and cause the injectors to delay in response etc and we wont add elevated fuel pressure in that equation either!

I am not attacking but thinking what i think is more simplified logic!.. And the first three questions have to removed from the equation and thats not including the number one culprit!.. Water!

Cheers

No offence taken.

Reality is that you're correct in terms of Denso / Toyota's R+D team are on top of things. around 2-3 months ago - guess what we discovered? all 2013 injectors have all moving components - including the spindle DLC coated - sounds familiar

Where i take exception to their actions is simple, once they have a discovery, they don't backwards integrate said fix. For example, DLC injectors (39316 spec) were meant to be "the" fix, but they NEVER offered that solution to the 2005/2006 hilux. It appears as though the same happened lately with the newer 2013 injectors. The new fix was to include a DLC coating on the spindle, but that is not happening to any other part number...

FWIW, at the end of the day, what happens to these injectors once they leave is basically beyond control or knowledge. Shitty fuel, water, Winter fuels, chips, additives driving conditions and behavior all make a massive differences. At the end of the day, our idea is to simply make the very best injector that we can build> and this includes being as tolorant as possible to everyone of those issues.

Anyone is welcome to come to our shop and watch 40-50 injectors be stripped down every day and make their own conclusions as to why they failed. The ONLY real visible wear / obvious faults is on the spindle. There are other issues of settings, sealing surfaces and so on, but the bulk of the issues are (in my opinion) spindle related.

To date, we've not seen any lasting injector body distortion (that would make enough difference) due to the tightening torque or age. regardless, every injector carcass that goes through the build process here is re-bored to be around 10 micron over (within .5 of a micron) and then spec'd with the appropriately sized new coated spindle.

My reference to the 2 stroke was purely that many people, many times over have stated that running 2 stroke for more lubrication made their car quieter. Our DLC coated spindles also made the cars run quieter due to their self lubricating properties. Whilst its anecdotal evidence at the moment, tests are underway currently from our side to work it all out > and if additives are required to get the best service life out of a non dlc coated spindled injector, what product by what concentration is best. (lets not forget we have a vested interest there too having over 8000+injectors in that configuration currently running around the country - and we don't quickly forget about our older customers...)

[Baileys Diesel Group Member Find all posts View Profile Close Baileys Diesel Group]

Also, its worth noting that every litre of diesel that you purchase already contains countless additives, further adding to the confusion...

[OldGreyFart Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close OldGreyFart]

Matt - BDG
I have read and reread this thread and other posts, visited your site more than once and discussed with diesel mechanics.

I am having my injectors replaced with the BDG re-engineered set next week. However, I am not sure what you actually replace or re-engineer.

Can you simple explain how your injectors are re-engineered?

Core kept and rebored? spindle replaced?

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Matt - BDG
I have read and reread this thread and other posts, visited your site more than once and discussed with diesel mechanics.

I am having my injectors replaced with the BDG re-engineered set next week. However, I am not sure what you actually replace or re-engineer

I belieave one of those parts that are not replaced is the injector solenoid but Matt can confirm if this is true or false!

Cheers

[OldGreyFart Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close OldGreyFart]

That is interesting because that is one ? I was asked by my diesel service mob today when I told them I was having the injectors replaced next week and them to service (125000kms) after.

I belieave one of those parts that are not replaced is the injector solenoid but Matt can confirm if this is true or false!

Cheers

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

I was asked by my diesel service mob today when I told them I was having the injectors replaced next week and them to service (125000kms) after.

Oooooh!!.... Eeeer!.... Wow!

There is 4 x "possibly" 5 x pulses in total on the Euro 4 common rail injector for one complete firing cycle.

There is 2 x full crank rotations to one firing cycle!

So at lets say 2,5000rpm (RPM = Revolutions Per Minute) to keep it simple for the maths.

2,500rpm divided by two equals 1,250, now times it by lets say 4 x pulses equals 5,000 pulses per minute & 300,000 pulses per hour!

Now when you start your rig from idle then bounce around to maybe 3,000 - 4,000 rpm depending on how you launch from the lights but ultimately you settle @ 2,500 rpm on cruise as that is the sweet-spot for cruising on the 1KD-D4D Prado!

Once you have worked your cruise speed out in top gear (Lets say 110 Kilometers per hour to keep it simple).

So to travel 125,000 kilometers @ 110 kilometers an hour it would take you approx 1,136 hours none stop!... Anyone for coffee!!

1,136 hours times 300,000 pulses equals 3408,000,000 pulses!! lol

I think this is why your mechanic questioned the solenoid!

Cheers

[qwerty_steve Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close qwerty_steve]

Reality is that you're correct in terms of Denso / Toyota's R+D team are on top of things. around 2-3 months ago - guess what we discovered? all 2013 injectors have all moving components - including the spindle DLC coated - sounds familiar

Very interesting. Why Denso did not coat the spindle in the late '07 revamp is anyone's guess then.

My reference to the 2 stroke was purely that many people, many times over have stated that running 2 stroke for more lubrication made their car quieter. Our DLC coated spindles also made the cars run quieter due to their self lubricating properties. Whilst its anecdotal evidence at the moment, tests are underway currently from our side to work it all out > and if additives are required to get the best service life out of a non dlc coated spindled injector, what product by what concentration is best. (lets not forget we have a vested interest there too having over 8000+injectors in that configuration currently running around the country - and we don't quickly forget about our older customers...)

Good on you for taking this on. Look forward to hearing what conclusions you come up with.

Diesel quality here in Australia is governed by the Fuel Quality Standards Act 2000. In the following link there is a table of the minimum standards for our diesel fuel:

http://www.environment.gov.au/topics...andards/diesel

The last row of the table states lubricity: 0.460mm max. In other words a wear scar on the HFRR of no more than 460 microns.

On Shell’s website I found a data sheet on their standard for lubricity additives, which is 400 microns:

http://s08.static-shell.com/content/...-dieseltds.pdf

Raw diesel fuel has a HFRR score of about 630 microns, so not a huge improvement by the fuel companies. But then they don’t have to… they are within the law.

The lubrication properties of today's fuel is back to where is was before LSD and ULSD came along, but times have changed and so has the fuel pressure in our modern CRD engines. Let's hope the latest generation of injectors finally puts this long standing issue to bed once and for all.

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

Did an injector test today and number 4 is getting very close to limit.

It ran from start to 370 seconds run time at -2.7, dropping to -2.4 at 600 seconds, finally settling to -1.8 to -1.9 from 1000 seconds.

At 1500 seconds readings were coolant at 76, inj volume 8.65, inj (1)-1.0, (2) 1.2, (3) 0.7, (4) -1.6 and this then stabilised.

I've never seen number 4 go so high. Last month it went to -2.1 but then dropped quickly. Toyota did the valve check on Wednesday - the first time I've had it done in the life of the car but I would assume they did this when they replaced the motor which was 42,000km ago. I now have 117K on 2 of the original injectors and the other 2 were replaced with the rebuild.

I guess I'm getting closer to replacement time and I already have all the bits ready to go.

[Baileys Diesel Group Member Find all posts View Profile Close Baileys Diesel Group]

In terms of parts replaced, Think all moving components.

So the body itself is totally stripped down and over-bored to have the new DLC coated spindles fitted which are +/- .008mm oversized. Nozzle and cap nut as well. EVERY other replacement has a vetting procedure, and if passed reused. things like valve plates are reconditioned using expensive specialist parts not used generally in the DFIE field (i.e. we've had to look to other industries to get the quality we wanted).

interesting about the solenoids. we're quickly closing in on 11,000 injectors, and to date have failed only 24 (intact) solenoids. I've discounted the ones that have been smashed apart (not intact) for obvious reasons...

Matt

[Baileys Diesel Group Member Find all posts View Profile Close Baileys Diesel Group]

***oh, and of course, orings, seals and other consumables are also replaced....

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Gday Matt

EVERY other replacement has a vetting procedure, and if passed reused.

interesting about the solenoids. we're quickly closing in on 11,000 injectors, and to date have failed only 24 (intact) solenoids. I've discounted the ones that have been smashed apart (not intact) for obvious reasons...

So you do re-use the injector solenoids?... Yes or no?

Cheers

[OldGreyFart Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close OldGreyFart]

Matt - thanks for that info. All makes sense.

Dropped my 120 off to Gary Sheppard Motors in Queanbeyan this afternoon for them to start first thing in the morning. All things being equal (i.e. you can delivery overnight) expect to get the Prado back late Wednesday.

[cfryback Find all posts View Profile Close cfryback]

To wade into a religious debate, I've noticed a HUGE improvement since filling up at Caltex with "premium" diesel. Running/idling smoother and doesn't sound like the pistons are going to launch out the bonnet....

Mind you I let the second tank get real low (no light) before filling..