diesel rattle in D4D Prado

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

What is a DLC Injector?

Hi Guys i did more home work
I thought i would put some clarification on the different types of fuel injectors and what/Why makes then so different from each other EG: none DLC to DLC and Piezo!... To the none DLC now being an obsolete injector and why!
+++++
DLC = "Diamond Like Carbon" = ULSD (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel) Rated Nozzles... double the service life(or more) over the none DLC injectors. ultra-hard "Diamond Like Carbon" coating aka "DLC".... (AKA = Also Known As).
+++++
A few years back (I am not interested on actual dates) the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) passed regulations that require reduced sulphur in diesel fuel.
+++++
The sulphur in fuel was reduced from 500PPM (Parts Per Million) to the now 15 - 10PPM... Don't be surprised to see it as low as 5 to 7 ppm in the not too distant future!
+++++
"Meaning!" sulphur "was" a good lubricant in the diesel fuel for moving parts but as the sulphur was reduced so was the lubrication of moving parts!... So new technology had to be invented to combat the loss of lubrication in moving parts. (Abnormal wear on moving parts).
+++++
DLC results in a 50% or more increase in component lubrication compared to a non-DLC nozzle type. A nozzle is comprised of two precision made pieces, a high nickel alloy nozzle and a high carbon steel needle. A non-ULSD (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel) Rated nozzle suffers from the effects of reduced lubricity as a result of the loosely controlled lubricity specifications.
+++++
Now we know what a DLC injector is we can now understand why these injectors superseded the none DLC injectors for the 120 series Prado's... The 120 series injector is also of the solenoid type (Old technology).
+++++
The 150 series injectors are a piezo injector (Crystal piezo layers Roughly 6-=700 wafer thin layers that expand when current is passed across them) that respond 4=5 times faster than solenoid type and also of DLC.
+++++
Faster responding parts need a faster responding ECU's!... Coincidentally the ECU is faster responding on the 150 series. (Technology is constantly moving forward for the better
+++++
Hope this clears up the confusion with the different types of injectors and there differences.
Cheers

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Hi Guys
"CONCLUSION".. Learn to identify the early warning signs and i believe all of the above can be avoided!.. It just all sounds bizzar and beyond me that when Toyota Australia/Japan already knows about the injector seating washers so Why don't they do a recall like in all the country's?.. Maybe its those been counters fault based on action's of complaint put forward in the write places! Lol Cheers

Skywalker that is the problem for me. I had no symptoms. I knew I had the 'interim" injector fitted because as soon as another guy I knew with a similar build date destroyed his engine I put my VIN in ToyoDIY and found out the history of injectors parts in the 120 and overseas. At that point at maybe 60,000 km I asked for the feedback values to be read and was told all ok, no values given. It was then that the service manager walked around with me to a few new 150s and a couple of second hand 120s and started them up. Mine was noisier than some but quieter that others including a brand spanker 150. To the best of my ear that noise hasn't changed. I had no rattle when cold during winter, no rough idle, no smoke on start up and yes I did the point the nose to the moon and start and then the opposite so I really tried. It was only me insisting that the values be read last service that I discovered I had a couple of injectors out of whack. And now that the injectors and system are all bright shiny and new, IT SOUNDS THE SAME AS IT DID BEFORE THE INJECTORS WERE CHANGED.

That is why I am saying get the values read when the D4D has its cold valve clearance check. Hey it takes a few minutes and maybe will cost you $50 at the outside, I don't know for sure because I have never been charged as a separate item.

I could have run my car in the knowledge that it wasn't displaying the symptoms and had a problem some time in the future. My extended warranty runs out in the next 6 months or less so I wanted to know.

I agree that the well known problem are the seals leaking but also acknowledge that the pre DLC injectors 'seem' to have a separate issue. And then if you have dirty fuel or contamination or water you can wear the pump and injectors so that is another possible issue though that is not Toyotas fault unless you reckon the factory filtration system should be 100% fool proof. (Can't ever be as fools are so damn clever!)

So like I said earlier as per Roos posts about preventative maintenance there are a few simple things we can do to keep on top of this. If the engine seems ok Toyota will never do an injector feedback test unless you ask for it. So ask for it. Let the service people know you are aware of issues with the injectors and keep you fuel system clean.

I am 99% sure I am about to launch into a 150 so I will keep up the regime of extra filter changes and will give lots and lots of thought to the catch can and pre-filter. My only concern is giving Ms Toyota a reason to deny warranty.

As a final point remember your engine doesn't have to sound like a harley davidson for the injectors to be on their way out.

[Steve-Kylie 120 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve-Kylie 120]

So let me get this right, between the quality of fuel we use from major outlets and the 2 filters from Toyota still aren't enough to keep these injectors happy?

I haven't been into the 4wd scene for long but something doesn't seem right here.

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

Some of that rattling may have been the pistons/rings on their way out due to no lube, just waiting to let go. Mine never made a sound either until it finally stalled and then on re-start the rattle was a definite "blown engine" sound accompanied by copious white smoke.

[mackayvx Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close mackayvx]

Some of that rattling may have been the pistons/rings on their way out due to no lube, just waiting to let go. Mine never made a sound either until it finally stalled and then on re-start the rattle was a definite "blown engine" sound accompanied by copious white smoke.

Far out dude!!!

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

The reason I said there is probably more than one problem here is because I had injectors out of range but no leakage from the seals so Skywalker's well thought out mechanism to failure didn't apply in that instance. I also think that the fact that Toyota have installed so many different injectors is because they had problems with injector longevity. The seal problem is something different again. As far as I recall Dave's D4D had the same injectors as mine. As did Grey Nomads whose engine stopped working in a similar spectacular fashion. Failure through lack of oil supply and cooling to the pistons and failure through poor atomisation of the fuel and uncontrolled combustion blowing holes in pistons (ha who said a diesel was controlled combustion?).

Anyway keep an eye on everything and don't wait for the death rattle or some severe symptom.

[Billx Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Billx]

After following all the extremely useful information in this thread and mulling things over I have decided to replace the injectors on my 2007 120 series Prado as this year I'll be doing my 5th round Oz trip and would like to avoid any nasty surprises. The vehicle has done 120,000km and has a DP chip from Berrima Diesel. I'm thinking of buying the injectors from Amayama and getting a diesel mechanic to install them. I wouldn't mind some advice on 3 things if people would be so kind-

-The part number for the injector assembly I get from the ToyoDIY site for my VIN 23670-39185 is different to the one quoted earlier in this thread by Skywalkerrun 23670-39316 so I'm concerned that I would be ordering the right parts. Can anyone clarify the difference-i.e. is the one quoted for this thread a new improved one?

-I understand with any new injectors that the new settings/calibrations have to be entered in the vehicle computer. I assume this would be done as part of the injector change out but does the DP chip also have to be changed?

-Finally can anyone recommend a diesel specialist in the Sydney area.

Thanks,

Bill

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Gday Billx
There has been a reduction of sulphur content in the diesel fuel from 500PPM (Parts Per Million) down to the now 10PPM which reduces the life of the "none" DLC injector due to the reduced lubrication property's in the fuel (Sulphur).
_____
Injector Part numbers 23670-39185 & 23670-39186 are Euro4 "None DLC" (Diamond Like Carbon) type injectors.
_____
Injector Part number 23670-39316 "IS" a Euro4 solenoid DLC type injector and supersedes both of the two above mentioned injectors with approximately 50% or more life span as appose to the none DLC's.
_____
With the above information we now know that there is a squillion (So to speak) 120 series D4D's running around with none DLC injectors that are not as resilient to low sulphur fuel.
_____
All of the Australian model 120 D4D's run the Euro4 solenoid type injectors (All 150 series run piezo DLC).
_____
NOTE: Euro4 injectors (None DLC solenoid) was used approx. between August 2006 - May 2008 before changing to a DLC..
_____
These injectors are NOT interchangeable as single replacements and must only be replaced by the same injector originally fitted. The DLC injectors can replace the original fitment injectors (None DLC) but ONLY as a full set of four. I also believe the ECU also requires a re-flash to go with this injector change.
_____
When new injectors are replaced they must have the calibration codes re-programmed into the ECU.
_____
Hope this helps.
Cheers

[Billx Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Billx]

Skywalkerrun,

Thanks very much for your most informative reply. It has educated me on a number of issues and helped me in making my decision.

Regards,

Bill

[Nik Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Nik]

Billx
I had the old non-DLC injectors replaced with the DLC injectors (23670-39316). I had it done at Fremantle Fuel injectors. They programmed the injector codes into the ECU, but there was no re-flash mentioned. After hearing on this forum that a re-flash was required for the new DLC types, I took it to Toyota. Initially, they said that no re-flash was required but I questioned them and also told them that it was idling poorly. So, they took it in and ended up doing a re-flash anyway "as instructed by Toyota" because "it would help the new injectors". Still no wiser - not sure why or if the re-flash is required. Also, I have heard on this forum that the re-flash should be done before the new DLC injectors are installed. Not sure about this either because it didn't make any difference in my case. The re-flash did seem to help the rough idle though. Let us know what happens with you. Thanks.
Nik

[Billx Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Billx]

Nik,

Thanks for the info-I used to live in Freo many years ago. I'll update the forum on how I get on with the injector replacement after I get the job done.

Cheers,

Bill

[Graceilyons64 Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Graceilyons64]

Hi Guys

+++++
Maybe if it could be proven that the injector seating washer could cause harm to others or death!.. would it then be considered as an act for health and safety backed by the ACCC.
+++++
EG: Doing 110kmh in peak hour and engine fails without warning/loss of control of the vehicle accurse then many other cars are involved as you loose control that could cause carnage or harm to others?.. Or even worse! If there is ever such a thing? Your pulling a trailer and 8 passengers in the 120 series or 7 passengers in the 150 series... Would that increase the odds to human safety?
+++++
Cheers

I Agree Skywalkerrun,

I am so fortunate that my engine died as I left the freeway. Our freeways here are set at 110kph and there was considerable heavy traffic the day my engine failed. WHAT IF IT FAILED AS I WAS DRIVING AT 110KPH AND A SEMI TRAILOR WAS RIGHT UP MY TAIL? I can pretty will guess, that me & my car would have been written off.

That's why I dont get it - WHAT IF, what's it going to take before Toyota steps up.

I just thank God I wasnt killed that day, as we all know travelling at that speed, and losing control of your vehicle is very scary and very dangerous!

That's why I am going to take my case as far as I can go. Im not going to just settle for my expenses, Im going to make sure that all Australians know!

Everyones safety is imperative.

[Graceilyons64 Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Graceilyons64]

Hi Guys
I have been doing Houuuuuurs & houuuuurs of reading on failed injectors and there is distinctive patterns that pops up in the over seas forum's!...
_______
I_______
#6: piston picks up and scores the cylinder bore due to over heating (Lack of oil lubrication to the piston can be "some times" recognised by a ticking noise) and leading to ring/Piston failure (Usually/commonly No:1 cyl first).... I personally also "think" this is provoked by the EGR port also running across the internal of the cylinder head (Coincidentally No:1 cyl) and all the other cylinders are completely surrounded by a water jacket and not a hollow cavity for the hot EGR exhaust port gases!... I believe this EGR port would expose No:1 injector to more heat than all of the other 3 x Cylinders... This may also explain the numerous new part Numbers for No:1 Cyl injector clamp?.... Who knows as I'm just throwing theories around here...
_______
Hope the above gives piece of mined (Not the sales pitch "Piece of mind"..Lol) for those who are un-settled by the whole catastroffic thing.
__
Cheers

Hi Skywalkerrun,

Got a question for you.

Is the No. 1 injector the work horse, does the energy from No.1 propel No.2,3 &4 to do their thing.?

Im just trying to understand, as from what I've read from this forum, No. 1 seems to be the one to malfunction first. In my case Toyota Australia identified No. 3 injector failed.... Causing huge damage.

Remember laymans terms for me...

this site is great Im picking up knowledge!!!

tks

Sharon

[Graceilyons64 Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Graceilyons64]

I say this with tongue in cheek......

WHAT'S WITH THE CHICKY BABES ADVERTISED ON THIS SITE??????

:lol:

[Graceilyons64 Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Graceilyons64]

I've stayed out of this thread, and for good reason.

The Roo points out that because a lot of people don't know about PradoPoint, the numbers could be higher than we think. But, I would probably suggest the opposite is true, and that PradoPoint collects more than its fair share of engine failure reports due to the victims of these failures googling/yahooing for answers, then joining in on the discussions here.

If you are serious about getting stats, then let's do it. We can host an online survey, and go about sending it to all PP members, and Hilux forum members etc etc. There will still be a bias in these stats, but it's a starting point.

Who knows, we might all be pleasantly surprised, or not....

I agree with what you are saying, Prado Point members would be a good start. To see what the results reveal. I also recommend the survey being done according to the engine types of the Europe recall - injector failure.

Roo is correct though in saying Prado Point is a small minority. I believe the problem is wide spread, how do I know this? Just speak to people and they either know of someone in their immediate circle of friends or family its hapenned too, or in the wider cirlcle of friend & family. I was actually amazed at how many people I knew as work friends had experienced isolated injector failure or catastrophic engine damage.

When you condsider the average Jo Bloggs - they; like me (lol) brought a car, got it regulary serviced and non the wiser. Until something happens. If it wasnt for my partner, I would have believed everything Toyota said about my car, Im not mechanically minded. And we shouldnt expect others to be self aware about specific engine diagnostics, its just not possible.

Let me say it like this, I'd rather be outside in the garden doing my thing... Than spending my time learning the ins and outs of my engine performance. As long as my mechanic signs off on that service log book - That's great.

But I will say this - thanks to Prado Point I am taking a more invested interest in my Prado. I too love my car! And I am not trying to make Toyota the villian. I just want fairness. Seriously I've driven my "it ill do SUZUKI" for the past month, its akin to driving a skateboard a break neck spead, cant compare it with my Prado

I'll give you this example, I know this guy who's got an IQ off the scale, went to Ikea brought a u-bute set of stools. You know the ones, you get that little allen key and those instructions. He was so over it after two hours of trying to get the darn thing together, in the end he got jack of it. Pilled it all up in the backyard and set it alight.

The point to my story is - It doesnt matter how intelligent you are, the general population just wants to get in the darn car and enjoy it. It's the same with Prado Point, everyone on here has joined for one reason or another. Mine was by doing a google search on injector failure, that's me. I question everthing, I want to know what went wrong (mind you that' after my partner told me too). From the experts on this site, there is an identified manufacturing fault with the injectors, Toyota's responsibility is to make aware of this to all of its customers. By doing this they are allowing the consumer the right to CHOOSE. If Toyota has been aware of this since I think it was 2008, why havnt they updated the service log books, so that the owner is clearly aware?

I hope this is making sense!

Oh... ARE YOU OFFERING TO DO THE SURVEY?

Just my thoughts.....