D4D Death - Engine bottom end failure

[masso Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close masso]

Re: D4D Death

The important consideration here is ATTITUDE! I have not indicated i wish to CON Toyota into acccepting a warrantly claim. I know its outside statutory warranty of course. What i have asked of the dealer is to discuss with Toyota the fact that a D4D engine that is built on reliability... (unbreakable in a hilux?) expires at 97K. I fully expect that they will point the finger at someone else in order to deny liability, but its not liability that is in question. Its Toyota's response to the phrase that is offered by EVERYONE i tell the story to... " I have never heard of a Toyota Diesel crapping itself at 97k! " or " gee... you would reckon a diesel would last longer than that!"" or " at 97K?... i would understand something like that happening at 297K! "

So be assured nobody is screaming WARRANTY... i am simply placing myself in the hands of the manufacturer of a product built on the grounds of reliability, and seeking their ASSISTANCE... whatever that may be... if its nothing.. then so be it... I will have to wear it.. ...if Toyota show INTEREST and make some form of attempt to resolve it with some contribution..then faith will be restored and i will most likely buy another one!

So,, its a wait and see....

[Guest Close max_rocktansky]

Re: D4D Death

I have read everything. Good luck.

[quadcam Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close quadcam]

Re: D4D Death

What caused you to replace the turbo before you found out it was more serious?

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: D4D Death

There is no outside influence that causes a bottom end failure, its usually fatigue from maybe 200-300,000km of use... .

Dont confuse wear with failure. Oil does a lot more than just lubricate and is an important component in keeping the engine cool.

Toyota 3L and 5L engines would often spin number 3 Big end when they got hot. Often they would get hot and do a head gasket and we would replace it only to find that number 3 had grabbed. No sign of a piston grabbing in the bore or cracks or a warped head.

What appears to happen (I am not a metallurgist just a diesel mechanic) is that as the engine coolant gets hot the oil gets hotter and loses some of its protection and the big end starts to grab a little. You may not even notice or hear it but once its grabbed it quickly destroys itself. And the driver may not even have seen the gauge go into the red.

Here is an example of what may happen;

I've fitted a bullbar to the front that adds weight and changes the airflow into the radiator. I put a set of driving lights in front of the radiator which restricts the flow even more. I then change the profile of the tyres so they are taller and require more power to turn. I add on another 150kg of added accessories and I load her up for a trip across the desert. So the vehicle is much much heavier than standard, needs more power/torque to drive it and the cooling system is less efficient. The day gets hot and the safe operating margin is lessened. If one of the ancillaries such as the fan belt or the factory viscous fan begin to malfunction, or the radiator has grass or debris in it, then the margin is exceeded and it gets hot. Maybe not hot enough to do a head gasket but still hot enough to grab the bearing. It would seriously only take one good sand hill under those conditions for the engine to be terminally damaged and it might not show up for some distance or even days when the bearing fails and sends metal through the entire oil system destroying as it goes.

In this scenario, one that I have seen in the workshop (though not in a desert but in the Canberra hills with 40deg temps), whats to blame. Is it the manufacturer, the driver or one of the ancillaries or the grass in the radiator that takes the blame. Probably none specifically but put together, **** happens.

And the culprit is normally discovered after it is rebuilt and starts to get hot again. Then the real culprit is found.

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: D4D Death

Though I might be an argumentative bugger but I thought when yours was newish it had a rattle or something that Toyota referred to head office? If thats correct wouldn't they have a record of it or something?

[MickL Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close MickL]

Re: D4D Death

$15k plus labour :?: :?:

That'd give you a LS2 or Chev V8 diesel conversion with lots of change :twisted: :twisted:

Good luck with Toyota. I hope they come to the party.


Mick

[pjorek Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close pjorek]

Re: D4D Death

There is no outside influence that causes a bottom end failure, its usually fatigue from maybe 200-300,000km of use... .

Dont confuse wear with failure. Oil does a lot more than just lubricate and is an important component in keeping the engine cool.

Toyota 3L and 5L engines would often spin number 3 Big end when they got hot. Often they would get hot and do a head gasket and we would replace it only to find that number 3 had grabbed. No sign of a piston grabbing in the bore or cracks or a warped head.

What appears to happen (I am not a metallurgist just a diesel mechanic) is that as the engine coolant gets hot the oil gets hotter and loses some of its protection and the big end starts to grab a little. You may not even notice or hear it but once its grabbed it quickly destroys itself. And the driver may not even have seen the gauge go into the red.

Here is an example of what may happen;

I've fitted a bullbar to the front that adds weight and changes the airflow into the radiator. I put a set of driving lights in front of the radiator which restricts the flow even more. I then change the profile of the tyres so they are taller and require more power to turn. I add on another 150kg of added accessories and I load her up for a trip across the desert. So the vehicle is much much heavier than standard, needs more power/torque to drive it and the cooling system is less efficient. The day gets hot and the safe operating margin is lessened. If one of the ancillaries such as the fan belt or the factory viscous fan begin to malfunction, or the radiator has grass or debris in it, then the margin is exceeded and it gets hot. Maybe not hot enough to do a head gasket but still hot enough to grab the bearing. It would seriously only take one good sand hill under those conditions for the engine to be terminally damaged and it might not show up for some distance or even days when the bearing fails and sends metal through the entire oil system destroying as it goes.

In this scenario, one that I have seen in the workshop (though not in a desert but in the Canberra hills with 40deg temps), whats to blame. Is it the manufacturer, the driver or one of the ancillaries or the grass in the radiator that takes the blame. Probably none specifically but put together, **** happens.

And the culprit is normally discovered after it is rebuilt and starts to get hot again. Then the real culprit is found.

Interesting what you're saying, would fitting an oil cooler help? I've seen one at the bottom of my d4d but i'm presuming it's gearbox oil cooler

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: D4D Death

There is no outside influence that causes a bottom end failure, its usually fatigue from maybe 200-300,000km of use... .

Dont confuse wear with failure. Oil does a lot more than just lubricate and is an important component in keeping the engine cool.

Toyota 3L and 5L engines would often spin number 3 Big end when they got hot. Often they would get hot and do a head gasket and we would replace it only to find that number 3 had grabbed. No sign of a piston grabbing in the bore or cracks or a warped head.

What appears to happen (I am not a metallurgist just a diesel mechanic) is that as the engine coolant gets hot the oil gets hotter and loses some of its protection and the big end starts to grab a little. You may not even notice or hear it but once its grabbed it quickly destroys itself. And the driver may not even have seen the gauge go into the red.

Here is an example of what may happen;

I've fitted a bullbar to the front that adds weight and changes the airflow into the radiator. I put a set of driving lights in front of the radiator which restricts the flow even more. I then change the profile of the tyres so they are taller and require more power to turn. I add on another 150kg of added accessories and I load her up for a trip across the desert. So the vehicle is much much heavier than standard, needs more power/torque to drive it and the cooling system is less efficient. The day gets hot and the safe operating margin is lessened. If one of the ancillaries such as the fan belt or the factory viscous fan begin to malfunction, or the radiator has grass or debris in it, then the margin is exceeded and it gets hot. Maybe not hot enough to do a head gasket but still hot enough to grab the bearing. It would seriously only take one good sand hill under those conditions for the engine to be terminally damaged and it might not show up for some distance or even days when the bearing fails and sends metal through the entire oil system destroying as it goes.

In this scenario, one that I have seen in the workshop (though not in a desert but in the Canberra hills with 40deg temps), whats to blame. Is it the manufacturer, the driver or one of the ancillaries or the grass in the radiator that takes the blame. Probably none specifically but put together, **** happens.

And the culprit is normally discovered after it is rebuilt and starts to get hot again. Then the real culprit is found.

Interesting what you're saying, would fitting an oil cooler help? I've seen one at the bottom of my d4d but i'm presuming it's gearbox oil cooler

It will definitely help to cool the oil, but then it may make it too cool and keep the engine below operating temperature. A thermostat of some description would help.

[MickL Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close MickL]

Re: D4D Death

The D4D (and 1kz) both have engine oil coolers, The oil is cooled via the coolant circuit not via an external radiator/air cooled. The cooler underneath a D4D is a fuel cooler.


Mick

[Dirtyprado Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Dirtyprado]

Re: D4D Death - Engine bottom end failure

I Have a mate with a Hilux D4D that had to have an engine rebuild post Turbo failure,then a total motor failure 5,000 km after the rebuild, they thought it had not been cleaned properly of debrie? from first incident,he was in perth Toyota had to pay accom and wages 4 weeks,while they did a review of what happened and then put a new motor in.
so I supose Toyota do support there product .
best of Luck.

[masso Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close masso]

Re: D4D Death - Engine bottom end failure

Hi Folks

Well...the faith is at this point still intact..... I dont want to say too much until I collect the car later this week...and see the final wash-up.....however I am very much hoping to be able to give glowing reports on both the dealer's efforts and TMCA responses to this catastrophe. WATCH THIS SPACE!

Masso

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

Re: D4D Death - Engine bottom end failure

Question, why the effort to replace the turbo in the desert? My understanding is when a turbo fails you typically still have some drive just underpowered. Did your Prado stop completely or was it still driveable?

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: D4D Death - Engine bottom end failure

Hope it goes well!

[masso Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close masso]

Re: D4D Death - Engine bottom end failure

Hi Folks

Well...the faith is at this point still intact..... I dont want to say too much until I collect the car later this week...and see the final wash-up.....however I am very much hoping to be able to give glowing reports on both the dealer's efforts and TMCA responses to this catastrophe. WATCH THIS SPACE!

Masso

Well...faith maintained. TMCA have accepted the cost of parts for a new engine..as far as anyone can gather..it spun a bearing ..and caused damage to all internals. I had to spring for the labour. All in all, I would say i am satisfied with the outcome. It has still cost me a packet, but i am satisfied that TMCA is supporting their product. A word regarding the Service Department of a large northside Brisbane Toyota dealer, and in particular their Service Manager, first class! Very supportive and dilligent in representing me to TMCA. Certainly i am grateful for his efforts to achieve this result. And of course TMCA for agreeing to support their product. Goes a long way to keep me as a Toyota customer. Some have said... "so they should have" in regards to an engine expiring in 97K, but they didnt HAVE TO, so for the outcome...i am grateful.

[Schaffer Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Schaffer]

Re: D4D Death - Engine bottom end failure

Hi Folks

Well...the faith is at this point still intact..... I dont want to say too much until I collect the car later this week...and see the final wash-up.....however I am very much hoping to be able to give glowing reports on both the dealer's efforts and TMCA responses to this catastrophe. WATCH THIS SPACE!

Masso

Well...faith maintained. TMCA have accepted the cost of parts for a new engine..as far as anyone can gather..it spun a bearing ..and caused damage to all internals. I had to spring for the labour. All in all, I would say i am satisfied with the outcome. It has still cost me a packet, but i am satisfied that TMCA is supporting their product. A word regarding the Service Department of a large northside Brisbane Toyota dealer, and in particular their Service Manager, first class! Very supportive and dilligent in representing me to TMCA. Certainly i am grateful for his efforts to achieve this result. And of course TMCA for agreeing to support their product. Goes a long way to keep me as a Toyota customer. Some have said... "so they should have" in regards to an engine expiring in 97K, but they didnt HAVE TO, so for the outcome...i am grateful.

That is good news there Masso. Any idea on the labour costs and how soon you will be behind the wheels again? Are you going to chance the Simpson again (not necessarily this year) as this issue could have happened anywere. Did Toyo help cover the cost of retrieving the vehicle or did you end up slugging that as well?