Petrol vs Diesel: A 10 year urban running cost comparison

[GR1]

Hi Mark, Just new to the site & interested in your graphs but can't get them to a readable size. When opening the link & then zooming in I loose resolution & still can't read. Tried downloading the picture into a separate file but some result.
What is the trick to expand & read?

[Whitey]

Hey all,

Here is an interesting website which compares the global price of petrol and diesel by country;

http://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/

Australia is right in the middle of the global price range, which would suggest we are taxed "fairly"? As the website states, "All countries have access to the same petroleum prices of international markets but then decide to impose different taxes. As a result, the retail price of gasoline is different. In some cases, like Venezuela, the government even subsidizes gasoline and therefore people there pay close to nothing to drive their cars".

Don't you wish we had Venezuelan prices, 0.02c/litre for petrol, and 0.01c/litre for diesel!!

I lived in Norway for many years, and regularly paid over $2.00AUD/litre for petrol.

Best

Mark

[Whitey]

According to my bosses tundra it averages 14.5 so either the V6 is poor or the tundra is exceptional.

Hey,

That is very impressive economy for a heavy 2.56t vehicle with a very powerful 284kW engine!

It doesn't seem to be a surprise either, see for example the comments here saying they regularly see 11.8l/100km;

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/d...-3737550/?Cr=0

The 1GR-FE in the 120 series is getting around 14.5l/100km according to several users, so quite similar to what your boss is getting, and the kerb weight of the Prado in factory trim is 500kg less than the Tundra, so on that basis I agree 100% with you, the V6 is poor and the Tundra is exceptional!

Something mouth watering for the diesel aficionados, Toyota are talking about a 5l turbocharged diesel V8 option for the Tundra;

http://www.4x4australia.com.au/drive...-toyota-hilux/

If the economy figures are genuine, then what is limiting the 1GR-FE economy in the 120? The petrol 150 seems to have better economy than the 120, and looking here;

http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...120-to-the-150

...you can see the dual VVT-i running on both intake and exhaust and slightly better drag coefficient gives the 150 an economy advantage over the 120, even when the 150 is a 200kg heavier vehicle.

You can have a squiz here and see that the 3UR-FE V8 in the Tundra is also running dual VVT-i on intake and exhaust, similar to the 150, which is what helps it achieve those nice economy figures;

http://australiancar.reviews/3UR-FE-engine.php

Best

Mark

[Symo]

Well, if our petrol (gasoline) was as cheap here as over there, then we'd all be driving V8 Tundras!

According to my bosses tundra it averages 14.5 so either the V6 is poor or the tundra is exceptional.


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[Whitey]

except, US does not import all of it's crude, they have significant production

Hey,

Good point!

The current difference in petrol price between Oz and US is 20%. If domestic consumption is at around 60% in the US, and distribution is around 10% of the petrol price, then the US should save around 6%, so Oz price would still be something like 14% more than US.

I still think that 14% difference would be mostly in tax.

Best

Mark

[photoprado]

...and then consider that there isn't really much difference in shipping distance from Saudi to US or Oz, then I think with crude/refining/distribution being roughly equal, then we are paying a lot more tax for fuel here in Oz.

except, US does not import all of it's crude, they have significant production

According to data from The Energy Information Administration (EIA) in their 2014 Early Release Overview, oil imports decreased from 12.55 million barrels per day in 2005, (60 percent of daily U.S. consumption), to 7.45 million barrels per day, (40 percent of daily U.S. consumption), in 2012.

[Whitey]

Well, if our petrol (gasoline) was as cheap here as over there, then we'd all be driving V8 Tundras!

Hey,

Just so you have an idea how much cheaper it is, here is historical data comparing US 92-93 Octane to ULP, adjusted by historical exchange rate and converted back to Australian currency in cents/litre;



You can see that the ULP price in Australia follows the trend in USA, and for the first 5 years it is around 20c/litre cheaper, and for the last 6 years around 35c/litre cheaper.

If we consider the breakdown of production and distribution costs for petrol;



...and then consider that there isn't really much difference in shipping distance from Saudi to US or Oz, then I think with crude/refining/distribution being roughly equal, then we are paying a lot more tax for fuel here in Oz.

As usual, everything in the Australian market place is over priced!

Best

Mark

[brogers]

Wow, what a great thread, statistics versus gut feelings I have had two Prados in the last 19 years, both v6 petrols, by the way they have been my only 4WDS in this period, 1 x 1996 90 series bought new (360000kms) and kept until I bought my 150 series bought new ( current 110000kms). Neither car has ever let me down over all the travel and serious "bush bashing" that they have been asked to do.

Indeed many of the posters here have seen my vehicles loaded for max outback touring driven "like they are stolen". Cost of fuel is irrelevant to me as I buy a vehicle to suit my purpose for use and driving style. That said in all my travels in the numerous Pradopoint GTG's and charity events I do (at least 2 per year) the cost of the petrol vs diesel and then the maintainance costs on top have proved similar.

This does not address the issue of injector claims and added costs to increase performance of diesels to meet the needs of owners. My real fuel usage (as if I care) is around 14.5lts per 100k around town, on bitumen fully loaded with all touring gear including racks is around 12lts per 100k and on my last Simpson Desert crossing (4th) I averaged 22lts per 100kms. I have all the mods, lift kit, over size tyres, steel bar, winch, all sorts of lights, dual batteries, snorkel, rack, updated bash plates and side steps, drawers plus more so I know my fuel consumption will rise over Toyota claimed figures (what a crock they are).

Would I buy a new Prado..no, Toyota have been lead down the product path by the marketing people, the new Prado and Hilux are built to do exactly what Toyota want, the maximum number of sales. Nothing wrong with that but they have lost me as a future upgrade buyer, I will hold on to my 2009 150 v6 petrol auto Prado (yes it was the first the dealer had sold and still no issues) until something else outstanding comes along.

See ya on the tracks, Richo.

Argh..Richo..you are so negative......"always look on the bright side of life"...Diesel Prado for me, love it, economical, good resale, long engine life, good for towing...each to their own

[Whitey]

Hey all,

I’ve now run the model for multiple petrol economies as well, the plot is below;



Petrol drivers can look up their average ULP economy on the left of the plot, and see what range of savings the diesel driver has in comparison over the 10.0-14.5l/100km economy range for the diesel.

The original comparison economies of 15.2l/100km for petrol and 12.4l/100km are shown as dashed lines.

As several users have supplied their variable economies on the thread, I’ve circled what I believe is the region of most interest, or where I expect the “average” diesel and petrol driver to meet. The “average” saving for the diesel driver would be in the order of $500/year.

There are two other points to consider when using this plot.

1. If you wish to use this as a lifetime calculation from ownership, then you need to include the purchase difference of diesel with respect to petrol, which I believe is in the order of $2000 more for diesel, or $200/year. This would reduce the “average” saving for diesel to $300/year.

2. For petrol drivers who run premium 98, I’ve put together a plot below which shows the additional savings/year by using 98 on the basis of economy;



I’ve assumed a constant historical 17c/litre difference compared to national ULP average. I don’t have historical data for 98, so the estimate is only a rough one. I’ve also assumed a maximum 2l/100km gain by running 98 compared to running 91. From my own highway driving on premium, I don’t believe you will see better than 11l/100km for the 120 series. I believe the “average” saving by running 98 is in the order of $40/year, so the “average” diesel driver would be ahead by $460/year compared to a 98 premium driver.

This diesel vs ULP model is up to 156000km of driving over the last 10 years. If you are looking at second hand vehicles, including the $2000 difference from ownership suggests that the total difference between diesel and petrol vehicles with 156000km should be in the order of $500x10 - $2000 = $3000 if you include the fuel + servicing + rego cost difference in the second hand price. My previous investigations on second hand prices showed in the order of $6000 more for second hand diesels with 156000km, so on the basis of this analysis, second hand diesels are overpriced by around $3000.

Best

Mark

[Richoson]

Wow, what a great thread, statistics versus gut feelings I have had two Prados in the last 19 years, both v6 petrols, by the way they have been my only 4WDS in this period, 1 x 1996 90 series bought new (360000kms) and kept until I bought my 150 series bought new ( current 110000kms). Neither car has ever let me down over all the travel and serious "bush bashing" that they have been asked to do.

Indeed many of the posters here have seen my vehicles loaded for max outback touring driven "like they are stolen". Cost of fuel is irrelevant to me as I buy a vehicle to suit my purpose for use and driving style. That said in all my travels in the numerous Pradopoint GTG's and charity events I do (at least 2 per year) the cost of the petrol vs diesel and then the maintainance costs on top have proved similar.

This does not address the issue of injector claims and added costs to increase performance of diesels to meet the needs of owners. My real fuel usage (as if I care) is around 14.5lts per 100k around town, on bitumen fully loaded with all touring gear including racks is around 12lts per 100k and on my last Simpson Desert crossing (4th) I averaged 22lts per 100kms. I have all the mods, lift kit, over size tyres, steel bar, winch, all sorts of lights, dual batteries, snorkel, rack, updated bash plates and side steps, drawers plus more so I know my fuel consumption will rise over Toyota claimed figures (what a crock they are).

Would I buy a new Prado..no, Toyota have been lead down the product path by the marketing people, the new Prado and Hilux are built to do exactly what Toyota want, the maximum number of sales. Nothing wrong with that but they have lost me as a future upgrade buyer, I will hold on to my 2009 150 v6 petrol auto Prado (yes it was the first the dealer had sold and still no issues) until something else outstanding comes along.

See ya on the tracks, Richo.

[Bushbasher]

In Ohio, for example, it is very difficult to find a diesel car

Well, if our petrol (gasoline) was as cheap here as over there, then we'd all be driving V8 Tundras!

[brogers]

wow, great calculation. But here in USA, unfortunately. it is not gonna work(( We have angry dealers, so almost everybody use petrol. In Ohio, for example, it is very difficult to find a diesel car http://italkaboutcars.com/joseph-airport-toyota-ohio

Thanks soap94, wow, almost no diesels..I had no idea. I visited parts of USA many years ago, and saw lots of large "pick ups" but just didn't notice the lack of diesels. In Queensland, many of us with 4wds have diesels, and lots of trucks, mine vehicles and remote power generators on properties run on diesel. Please remind me, what do they call the Prado in USA? It's sold under a different name isn't it?

[brogers]

Hey,

Just put human readable numbers in and save everyone except maths/science geeks confusion.

1.25e+5 is 7 characters
125000 is 6 characters

So it saves a lot of bandwidth too

....."retired" maths/science geek.... please....

[Whitey]

Nice graph but when I grew up it was miles/gallon and the natural thing would have been to say kms/litre when we got all metric
Can you re do this graph with km/ltr because some people only have a 80 ltr tank

Hey again,

For the old school farmers, here it is in miles/US gallon;



Best

Mark

[Whitey]

Nice graph but when I grew up it was miles/gallon and the natural thing would have been to say kms/litre when we got all metric
Can you re do this graph with km/ltr because some people only have a 80 ltr tank

Hey,

Here ya go, economy in km/litre;



Best

Mark