Suspension Measurements 2

[mjrandom]

Thanks Andrew. The ARB catalog shows all the front springs as 25mm lift. I expect and hope you are correct. Ignoring the weight of the removed factory bits you have about 110 kg up front and mine is not far behind at maybe 100 kg. Any idea how much longer the 885s are? The effective rate will be higher as the spring is contained in the same space. Be nice to have an idea how much different they are.

[AJ120]

All the front OME springs are actually the same spring rate, its only the length that varies. The 883's are the 25mm lift and the 884 and 885 are 40mm lift depending on weight. With ARB bullbar, a winch 23kg and no second battery I find the 885's a nice ride.

Cheers Andrew

[mjrandom]

OK after some agonising about getting the right or at least a good spring rate (since I was actually happy with the Toughdog and how it rode and handled) I have decided to go for OME with 2884 front springs and 2895 rears. The rears will be fine because I have a medium coil there now and I have polyairs too but the front is the maybe. From the results posted here I should be fine, I have an AGM battery and ironman bar so all up about 65kg more than stock after deleting the Toyota steel bits. Add the ARB dual head compressor in the winch space in the next "soon" (just have to get a whole weekend off and the car to play with since everything is made I have only to fit the thing and wire it!) and that will be another 20kg. The heavy springs are more like >100kg and up to 150kg so meant for ARB steel bar, dual battery and winch. I would rather be about mid range on the spring rate. Only thing is that ARB only quote 25mm lift with those springs. They can be fitted with seat spacers so I will get the 884s fitted and measured and if they are below 785mm then I will get the spacers put in as well. I know the suspension will settle and we have some 4wding coming up.

I have been very happy with the OME suspension in the Rodeo ute, to the extent that I have just ordered the same for the new old one I am replacing the 05 with so I hope it will be as good in the 120. Fitting is later this week so have to wait and see.

Oh and I will take the dead Toughdog stuff back to the fitter and leave it on his doorstep.

Bugger!

[mjrandom]

Thinking about this I agree with your comments, I reckon the install was average to say the least. I have been progressively finding dodgy stuff over the last 4 years. Worst by far was the 6mm automotive cable that someone thought was fine to hook up a blue tongue IV compressor with. I pulled that compressor out to fit the ARB twin and found a black mangled mass. God knows how it didn't go up. Really lucky. I am surprised it has taken over 4 years to fail though. Again lucky it was now and not next month up at the Fraser coast. I will see if I can sneak it in today so the shop has plenty of time.

Michael

[8608]

the squeeking/creaking noise is from the lower eye of the strut rubbing on the control arm due to lower bush failure.

keep in mind, the entire weight of the front end is on these two lower bushes.

if you ever have the chance to cut one open and have a look, some of them are built with a 'ball' on the metal sleeve/tube. this means there is less deflection of the surrounding rubber in the bush. if i get a chance, i will cut some open and take some pics.

the cheaper rubber replacements don't have the supporting 'ball' hence why they collapse. also doing the lower strut bolt up while the wheel is off the ground will twist the guts out of the bush. some sleeves (most) are bonded in the rubber, which is how they get damaged. other such as a super pro poly urethane have a sleeve which should be lubricated and should not have this issue.

as for the strut top mount, if they are not tightened enough, or are missing the locating washer, then the shaft will be loose once the vehicles' weight is applied and the lower bush under the strut mount compresses. this is a bit hard to explain if you haven't taken apart and re-assembled struts before.

i have worked with dobinsons, efs, bilstein, koni, and raw. each have different lengths of thread on the strut shaft. this means different struts will need to be assembled differently and accordingly. my dobinsons show 3-4 threads above the nylock, but some bilsteins require you to use all of the thread available to get the same crush. some use fine thread, and some use course thread.

i currently run dobinsons mono tubes with a spherical ball lower bush. no problems or noises so far.

you can also gain a little extra down travel with a thicker lower bush in the upper strut mount. every mm counts.

if you are worries about your lower bushes, try the zip tie tell tale test. get a medium sized zip tie, like a 4mm or 5mm one, and try to slip it under the lower strut eye or between the strut eye and the lower control arm. if the zip tie passes through easily, you should be fine. if the zip tie is tight or doesn't go through, they're either cactus or going to be.

[Peterpilot]

That's the second failure of this type I've seen on PradoPoint. The first one was an EFS strut in this post: http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...l=1#post251621

I've been told that the cause of this type of failure starts with a failure of the lower bush. The most common cause for the lower bush to fail is if it is torqued while the vehicle is still on the hoist rather than on the ground. Also, the squeaking noise reported by MJ could have been a warning that the lower bush had failed:

I think the reason for this failure is misunderstood. After speaking with suspension specialists, I have concluded that this type of failure is probably due to a failure of the lower suspension bush.

If a lower bush fails and causes binding at the pivot point, then one of the lower welds will eventually snap, which is exactly what happened.

This is also why it is so important for the lower suspension mount to be tightened when it's on the ground and not when at full droop on a hoist, where the subsequent distortion of the bush will lead to a failure. Apparently a re-design of the lower bush has also reduced the chance of this type of failure. The new design also produces a squeaking sound in the front suspension to warn of failure.

Another reason for squeaking struts is a failure of the top bush which allows the shaft to contact the strut top cap. I've personally seen this on 2 different Prados with Bilsteins. I believe all these bush failures (top and bottom) have nothing to do with brand of shock, rather they are caused by poor installation.

[Hutch]

Wow, MJ that is not good.


Hutch- 2012 Prado 150, some TJM Kit.

[mjrandom]

I mentioned in another thread that the Prado had developed a rubber squeak in the passenger front suspension. Well it developed a clunk too. Wife was driving the Prado as support vehicle for another of our kayaking trips. No load, no trailer just went bang going around the roundabout. Lucky I guess could have been much nastier at speed. Drove it home the 5 km very slowly and then caught up with the group to continue the weekend.



Guess I wont be recommending Toughdog adjustables. I was quite happy with the toughdog setup but realistically the Prado hasn't been run hard or treated badly and I really didn't expect to change the suspension before selling it in 18 months or so. As usual time is a problem so I will just get OME put on. Need to sort out which springs, maybe these? Anyway quite a disappointment after 4.5 years and 120,000 km.

Kayaking was good though, just under 33 km at an average of 5.5 km/h. Wind on Saturday wasn't nice but otherwise timed the moon to perfection.

[Peterpilot]

That's a great result, by my measurements the sway bar limits suspension down travel to about 615mm of shock extension, more or less depending on how good the bushes are. So while another 5mm shock travel won't make a huge difference to suspension travel, the sway bar extension links are more for returning the links back to a reasonable angle. I took the cheap option of just using some spacers for now, I might reconsider that later.

[Trekrider]

I got the N74Es fitted today and with the unmodified Sway Bar Links I measured the droop to be:

Rear Left: was 890, now 925
Rear Right: was 880, now 930

The link was at quite an angle though:

[Trekrider]

Actually, would be interesting to take measurements before and after the extended sway bar links just to see how much the sway bar limits droop.

I'm with you there I'm planning on getting the shocks changed out ASAP but the links will have to wait until I can get them made up so I will be able to take both measurements.

[Peterpilot]

For the record, I measured the droop with the car on the hoist and got 880 on the right and 890 on the left - that's with the OME 60004 Prado shocks. Be interesting to see what I get with the N74Es and extended sway bar links.

That sounds about right, the 60004 at 580mm is 5mm longer than the OE Toyota shock at 575mm which gave me 880mm droop. The N71E/N74E is 620mm long and should give you around 930mm droop with extended sway bar links

Actually, would be interesting to take measurements before and after the extended sway bar links just to see how much the sway bar limits droop.

[1coolbanana]

To be honest it doesn't feel any different Marc

Excellent, just what you wanted then?

[Trekrider]

How does the ride feel?

To be honest it doesn't feel any different Marc

[1coolbanana]

That sounds pretty good
Sounds like youre in a pretty good place now.
How does the ride feel?