Had front end suspension adjusted - but now something seems off.

[IRON-PAWW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close IRON-PAWW]

Thought I'd throw this situation out there and see if someone with a bit more knowledge could offer comment.

Prado had an Autocraft 2inch lift installed a few years back, that being Bilstein Shocks & struts with Ridepro coils. Really happy with that, the results were A1 for what I wanted. Fast forward to early this year and I had an ARB bar and winch installed. Initially the front end lost a little height but it wasn't too bad so I left it and decided to see how it went. I wasn't all that surprised that over the next few weeks the front end dropped quite a lot, I'd say back to below even stock height. No prob, I fully expected that might happen. Took it to WA Suspensions here in Osborne Park in Perth to get them to look at it. Thought I might need new coils. But all that was needed was to move the Bilstein circlip from the bottom setting to the top and the front end came up nicely. All good. They did a wheel alignment as I sat there in the shop then I drove away. Almost immediately I noticed some oversteer where there wasn't any before. Going around a sharpish corner the front end seemed to dig into it and get wrenched around some. Hmmmmmmmm.

Then, next day I was out fitting up a CB aerial and noticed straight away the front drivers tyre looked flat. Hmmmmm. Pressure tested it and it was all good. Hmmmmmm. Radials do look a bit flat sometimes I know but this is definitely over and above that. Now. I'm simply a layman when it comes to this, but I'm pretty sure WA Suspensions have stuffed up the camber angle on that front drivers side wheel. Even just looking at it, seems like there's way too much positive camber, where the top of the wheel is further out than the bottom. With the car sitting flat it's noticeable.

So, is that weird angle making the tyre seem flat and causing the oversteer? There's nothing off the planet with the lift kit, pretty standard stuff really. Has WA Suspensions just messed up the wheel alignment??

Next thing, Can I drive to work with this going on?

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

IP couple of basic checks what is the height from bottom of rim to guard? If it is over 800 you will likely run out of castor. Next do the coils have plenty of space between them? If the coils are too soft shifting to the top circling to get ride height may mean the coils are binding up. Does the car side flat side to side? Are both circlips in the same place? And finally measure the same for the rear let's see how it is sitting front to rear.

[IRON-PAWW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close IRON-PAWW]

[IRON-PAWW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close IRON-PAWW]

Thanks MJ. Results are as follows.

Front LH: 805mm
FrontRH: 800mm (where the problem is)

Reah L + R :815mm

Looks like both circlip settings are the same and I can't see any discernible lean to one side. There are Polyair's in the back too, which have about 10psi in them. Just got those fitted the other day as well.

From what you say, it seems I'm right on the limit. Looking at those coils on the front, seems a bit tight to me??

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

I don't have the same gear but the coils look too tight. I will let someone with a similar set up comment though. Heights are ok. Just. My coils, different set up obviously, have a bigger gap than coil diameter yours look like the gap is way less.

Reckon you need stiffer springs. Do you know which spring is fitted?

Front is a bit high for the rear too, ideally +30 or so.

[Matt01 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Matt01]

Hi Iron Paww
from my experience with getting a two inch lift, there are two types of wheel alignments.
Standard (waist of time and money) wheel alignment which the toe in or out is adjusted only, and the proper wheel alignment which the chamber, caster and toe is adjusted.

I have been down the same road as you and had the "standard" wheel alignment done a few times, thinking that the tire shop new what they were doing.
After two goes at it I got the shits with them and took the car to JAKS and they adjusted the camber and toe in and the car drove spot on.

My advise is to take it back and tell them to adjust camber, caster and toe.

[IRON-PAWW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close IRON-PAWW]

Thanks for all the help guys. I'll gather all the comments I can and then go back to WA suspensions and ask some pointed questions.

The springs are Ridepro - but I can't remember exactly which ones they are. The more I look at the photo's the more I think you are right about the stiffer springs. There doesn't seem to be much compression left in those just from looking at them. Hopefully someone with a similar setup can compare notes. Does Darren still frequent the forum??

WA Suspensions is a suspension specialist business here in Perth. Vehicle suspensions is all they do so....... this is a mystery. They do the full alignment - or are supposed to.

Wheel alignment sheet is as follows.

Front Left
Camber: 0.2°
Caster: 1.6°
Toe: 1.6mm
SAI: 11.2°
Included Angle: 11.4°

Front Right

Camber: 0.5°
Caster: 1.2°
Toe: 1.4mm
SAI: 9.4°
Included Angle: 9.9°


FRONT
Cross camber: -0.3°
Cross Caster: 0.4°
Cross SAI: 1.8°
Total toe: 3.0mm

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

Darren has been inactive here since 2011 but it might pay to give him a phone call.
This thread is a discussion on wheel alignment specs: http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...l=1#post218757

[Bear63 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bear63]

Miles to much toe in for that camber and the caster could be increased , also no such thing as a standard wheel alignment , a wheel alignment requires adjustment of all angles as required if possible , don't let them tell you otherwise unless you own a Navara

[IRON-PAWW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close IRON-PAWW]

Hmmmmmm OK thanks Bear63. These figures I admit mean little to me. Starting to think I should just book it in to a decent 4x4 place to have this done and cut my losses. Just to get people who deal with 4x4's all the time and know what they're doing. Still, you'd think WA suspensions should get this right. What should I be aiming for as a benchmark on this? Like - what should that report be saying approximately? Or is that purely case dependent?

I might shoot Darren an email & see if he can check out the pics. Seems there's two issues here, the compressed springs and the wheel alignment. Amazing what you find out when you put the question out there. But I'd rather know about this stuff than not.

They did say I was running out of one of the adjustments because of the lift, not a lot more adjustment there. Can't remember which it was. That must be the case for others with a 2 inch lift also??

What effect does the front height VS rear height differential have as mjrandom has pointed out?

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

I think they went one groove too many. Mine had to be dropped back and then it was sweet. Over 800 for mine was too much and the castor couldnt be adjusted back.

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

Yet mine is fine at 810mm, all cars have slightly different geometry and limits which is why there is no such thing as a standard alignment. Having a look at the link I poster above, Darren uses 10"-15" (0.15-0.25 degrees) pos camber, 1-1.5mm toe in and as much caster as is available after a lift:

We go 10-15 pos camber 1-1.5mm toe in, castor what ever we can balance it out at with lift normally.

In the same thread, Mick recommends a little less toe in at 0.5mm with 30" (0.5 degrees) pos camber and 1'45" (1.75 degrees) pos caster:

I have 810mm in the front, have some adjustment left and use the following specs:

Camber: (left and right) 30" +

Caster: (left and right) 1' 45" +

Toe in: 0.5mm

The factory alignment specs are less than ideal.

Depending on your vehicle, there may not be enough pos caster adjustment left over after a lift.

Have you checked all the suspension bushes, top and bottom? I have seen two Prado struts where the top strut bush had failed which allowed the shaft to make contact with the strut top cap. Were the alignment bolts done up after the alignment was done? Seems too simple, but stranger things have happened.