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Why the Bilstein BE5-A713 should not be used in lifted Prados

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  • #31
    Hi Mark,

    Finally got a chance to call John today. Thanks for putting me onto him, he was extremely helpful!

    He has quoted me on both Bilstein 1478LT's and the 897's with a Dobinson 327 coil.

    My question (since getting off the phone!) is why the 327? The database shows it has a smaller spring rate than my current Tough Dogs (232 vs 260). Are those figures correct? If so, my TD's are somewhere between 327's and 329's but 20mm shorter. So I'm thinking I should just go with your suggestion of a 20mm spacer to make up the difference in length and save the coin? Sorry, I'm trying to sort through the incredible amount of data accrued on this website but couldn't find an answer!

    Also, what are the main differences between the shocks he has quoted?

    Thanks!

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Agent Gipps View Post
      Hi Mark,

      Finally got a chance to call John today. Thanks for putting me onto him, he was extremely helpful!

      He has quoted me on both Bilstein 1478LT's and the 897's with a Dobinson 327 coil.

      My question (since getting off the phone!) is why the 327? The database shows it has a smaller spring rate than my current Tough Dogs (232 vs 260). Are those figures correct? If so, my TD's are somewhere between 327's and 329's but 20mm shorter. So I'm thinking I should just go with your suggestion of a 20mm spacer to make up the difference in length and save the coin? Sorry, I'm trying to sort through the incredible amount of data accrued on this website but couldn't find an answer!

      Also, what are the main differences between the shocks he has quoted?

      Thanks!
      Hey,

      The 327 coil is actually 271lb/in, and is well matched to the 1478 and 897 valving. The 329 coil is 332lb/in. Your TD coil is 260lb/in.

      You can do the spacers as a cheap alternative, but ultimately you'll want a proper length coil back there, the longer seat can twist on full articulation.

      The 897's are valved a little softer than the 1478, and are a bit shorter on open length. Have a squiz at the Bilstein database for all the specs;

      http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...hs-and-Valving

      I'd push for the 327 if your budget can stretch it.

      Have you got longer swaybar links?

      Best

      Mark
      2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Spoke to Agent Gipps today & he has a Titan Drawer system + accessories this is constant weight & intends to do a cape trip with a lot more weight on board.
        I did recommend the 329 rear coils & the 1478LT.
        I know the 327s won't cope with all this weight.
        Coil spacer are cheaper but they wont fix the problem.
        Cheers
        4WD SUSPENSION & BODYLIFTS 0418780611 A/H PH/FAX 07 33512692- [COLOR=#ff0000][SIZE=5]Bilstein, Ironman & Roadsafe Distributor [/SIZE][/COLOR]

        Comment


        • #34
          Once again, thanks so much to you both for your expert advice. My last question before the big decision...!

          Would taller, softer coils, like the 487's (430mm, 280 lb/in), be a more comfortable ride around town than the 329's (390mm, 332 lb/in!) whilst still being able to maintain a suitable rake (loaded and unloaded) due to their extra height?

          Cheers!
          Last edited by Agent Gipps; 22-05-2017, 07:49 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Agent Gipps View Post
            Once again, thanks so much to you both for your expert advice. My last question before the big decision...!

            Would taller, softer coils, like the 487's (430mm, 280 lb/in), be a more comfortable ride around town than the 329's (390mm, 332 lb/in!) whilst still being able to maintain a suitable rake (loaded and unloaded) due to their extra height?

            Cheers!
            Hey,

            Yep that 487 with airbags will serve you well! I run the 487 at around an 830mm rear ride height with a constant load in the rear of false floor/fridge slide/fridge/abr flyer agm/second level of flooring etc.

            I use firestone airbags with kevlar sleeves so I can run them up to 60psi if I need to.

            When I pack up my Prado it is up to GVM, and my rear suspension cycles beautifully with my current rear valving of 3925N/910N at 0.52m/s matched with my 280lb/in coil. I had that 487 coil custom made by Dobinsons for exactly this setup. It will sag a little under GVM load, but the airbags will recover any lost ride height.

            The 487 coil bucket separation at full droop also matches the open length of the 24-217897 and the B46-1478LT very nicely.

            I would say with all the weight you're planning on having back there, the 1478LT/C59-487/firestone bags combination will work extremely well.

            You will transform your Prados handling with that 1478LT in there!

            Best

            Mark
            2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Just a quick update, the 1478LT's and the 897's went in a couple of days ago. Despite being in NSW I bought them off Zordo as I felt he earned my business by being the most knowledgable and helpful person I spoke to about my suspension. A local mechanic fitted for me.

              So far I am very happy with them! The car now sits at approx. 795mm front and 845mm in the rear with nothing in the back besides partially loaded drawers and a steel cargo barrier.

              it comes down 20-30mm when fully loaded with camping luggage. I am yet to put the RTT on top of that but assuming another 5-10mm. That would bring me back to 805-820mm when touring which I think is great! No airbags required at this stage!

              While I am yet to go properly 4x4 I could see the greater flex just in the crest of my driveway. Handling unloaded and loaded is a LOT better. Drives more like our SUV around bends now.

              The ride is assured but not as harsh as I suspected it might be, which is a bonus.

              A small note, and one that could be entirely incorrect, but I feel as though the front suspension (712) is clashing with the rear. When cornering heavily the car feels a bit 'jumpy'. Perhaps someone else has experienced this or knows the cause of it?

              Thanks Mark for your help!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Whitey View Post
                ..........Note that for 120 owners, you can get away with not lengthening your brake lines or swaybar links with the 24-217897, but you’ll need to lengthen both with the 1478LT. FJ and 150 owners should only need to lengthen their swaybar links with the 1478LT as the FJ and 150 come with longer OEM rear brake lines.............
                Hi, Mark,

                I have come across this thread when I was searching for prices on new set of 713 for the back. I have bought my Prado 120 in 2013 with the original suspension on it which was sagging as hell, so first thing after changing the injectors, I have upgraded the suspension using BE5-A712 with Lovells TFR-118HD front/ BE5-A713 with Lovells TRR-119 Back. I know hardly anything about suspension, and this is what was recommended to me at the time. I got it from 4wddirect, and installed it myself.

                I have done 45000 km since (mostly on trips, and also towing camper trailer to Fraser 2x)), and noticed bit of dampness on one of the rear shockers, and since I want to do Simpson next year, I am thinking about replacing the rear shockers. I was going to replace the back with another set of A713, from this thread it seems like that it is not a good idea. I do not want to replace the springs yet, and just want to replace the shockers. What would you suggest? From your article it seems that your recommend 24-217897. Can I put those in with my current spring set up?

                And which supplier would you recommend? I am in Melbourne.

                Than you

                David

                Comment


                • #38
                  Hey David,

                  You can use the 24-217897 with your existing rear coil. Just don't space it any longer than the 610mm open length otherwise you'll get parallel droop coil dropouts.

                  John at Zordos Suspension can supply them for you.

                  Hendersons Suspension in Carrum Downs are a good old school suspension shop!

                  The 24-217897 will be a much better shock in the Simpson than the 713, and you'll have minimal pogo stick in the rear when you're packed up heavy.

                  Best

                  Mark
                  2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Thank you Mark for the quick reply.
                    As I mentioned earlier I know next to nothing about suspensions, what do you mean by

                    Originally posted by Whitey View Post
                    Just don't space it any longer than the 610mm open length otherwise you'll get parallel droop coil dropouts.
                    Cheers
                    David

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Hey David,

                      The relationship between coil travel and shock travel in the rear is shown in this thread;

                      http://www.pradopoint.com.au/showthr...ado-120-series

                      The 24-217897 requires at least 390+10 = 400mm on the coil bucket separation to keep the coil trapped at full droop, meaning you can use your 400mm TRR-119 coils. Some run the 24-217897 with a 10mm taller 410mm free height Dobinsons coil, which allows you to increase the 24-217897 open length with around 10mm worth of washers/spacers. You cannot do that type of spacing with your TRR-119 coils as you'll have a 10mm gap and your coils would come loose at full droop.

                      You can bolt the 24-217897 straight in with your TRR-119 coils without any modifications.

                      Best

                      Mark
                      2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Thank you Mark

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Mark, what is your opinion of the Koni 90 Raid shocks for Prado, in comparison to Bilstains? Do they justify their price? Especially if I woudl use the car for offload work only?
                          Thank you
                          David

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Borec View Post
                            Mark, what is your opinion of the Koni 90 Raid shocks for Prado, in comparison to Bilstains? Do they justify their price? Especially if I woudl use the car for offload work only?
                            Thank you
                            David
                            Hey,

                            The RAIDS are the shortest travel of all after market struts and shocks, and can be ruled out for use in lifted Prados as you'll end up with minimal droop. The 88-1712 strut is valved ok, but the valving of the rear 90-5404 shock is missing a lot of rebound and is not suitable in a lifted or loaded up Prado that goes bush.

                            If your Prado is for off-road work only, there are better big bore hydraulic twin-tube options out there!

                            Best

                            Mark
                            2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I know this is an old thread, but I literally just stumbled across it while receiving a 2inch lift suspension quote for my Prado 150 KDJ150 2011, and I am glad I did.

                              If I could just post what parts he has quoted. As I was wondering if this was still an issue or if it had been corrected with the newer parts. Thankyou in advanced:


                              SM-1083 S/MOUNT HI-LUX 150 PRADO, FJ (SM-1083) 25mm x 2

                              BI-BE5-A712 BILSTEIN TOYOTA PRADO 95-120-150 FR STRUT x 2

                              KTFR-101H KINGS TOYOTA 4x4 RAISED FRONT VARIOUS x 1

                              BI-BE5-A715 BILSTEIN TOYOTA PRADO 150 REAR SHOCK x 2

                              KTPR-102 KINGS PRADO 120, 150 SER RE P/RATE x2

                              ASS-STRUT ASSEMBLE STRUT, COIL, SHOCK, TOP MOUNT x1






                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by alchemist80 View Post
                                I know this is an old thread, but I literally just stumbled across it while receiving a 2inch lift suspension quote for my Prado 150 KDJ150 2011, and I am glad I did.

                                If I could just post what parts he has quoted. As I was wondering if this was still an issue or if it had been corrected with the newer parts. Thankyou in advanced:


                                SM-1083 S/MOUNT HI-LUX 150 PRADO, FJ (SM-1083) 25mm x 2

                                BI-BE5-A712 BILSTEIN TOYOTA PRADO 95-120-150 FR STRUT x 2

                                KTFR-101H KINGS TOYOTA 4x4 RAISED FRONT VARIOUS x 1

                                BI-BE5-A715 BILSTEIN TOYOTA PRADO 150 REAR SHOCK x 2

                                KTPR-102 KINGS PRADO 120, 150 SER RE P/RATE x2

                                ASS-STRUT ASSEMBLE STRUT, COIL, SHOCK, TOP MOUNT x1





                                Hiya alchemist80

                                The BE5-A715 you speak of is the 24-238830
                                If you use the KTPR-102 those coils are long enough to remain trapped with the B46-1478LT which would be a better option.
                                You could also run the 24-217897 in it..... Both are longer options over the A715, but as whitey stated, you will need longer brake hoses and swaybar links to run the 1478LT
                                [COLOR="#0000CD"]Jason formerly of Wholesale[/COLOR]
                                Prado Lover Extraordinaire

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