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  • Haha mate, she's realised that you're serious :P
    Yeah, I'd love the prado (mines a D4D) to have a bit more getup and go, but it's not worth chipping or remapping a D4D as it's asking for trouble with injectors and holes in pistons (that's the sese I get from reading around anway- might be some who have had success, but it's not something I'd be willing to risk without putting better pistons in and new injectors). It's a real shame about them as there are still good diesels around- You don't hear too much grief from 70 series owners. I know there was oil chewing going on early but I think a lot of that was down to guys doing their own services and using incorrect specs and weights. The Izuzu 4j1 and Duramax engines are great and Cummins still make an outstanding engine in the 4BT/ 6BT- It's not as though it can't be done, but Toyota have fell well below the mark of something like a 1HD-FTE.

    I'd imagine that the Y62 would be a lot more comfortable than the prado on big trips and it'd have more space for sure- and the power would be exceptional no doubt. I know about the only things you see Y62's doing on youtube is either pulling power runs from 0-100 or racing up sanddunes (which to be fair seems to be what they were designed for- Hello Saudi Arabia). It's frustrating as a Toyota owner that you know that they're able to make better engines but they don't have to- People keep buying them in droves, I know I went to my local show recently and the salesman there told me there was a crazy waiting period for a 70 series in graphite and a 4 week waiting period for a VX 200 series in the same colour- Why would Toyota bother spending money on R&D if people keep queing up to buy them....

    Comment


    • Originally posted by CamJam View Post

      They must be looking at it. It's all over the internet both in forums like this, FacePlant, Motoring websites etc etc. As for the ACCC - I got a very defensive response from Toyota when I mentioned I may look into it for the DPF and the squealing issues I have had. They replied indicating they would escalate it to NCAT (whoever they are) and I would have to be prepared for a lengthy and costly process before anyone could take it to the ACCC. I did see on Berrima Diesel page, though, that they dropped the email of a bloke in ACCC that's apparently looking into it. Thought about sending him an email, but then thought the bloke's just had his work email flashed up on facebook so he's probably not going to be a happy chappy this week.
      Cant see how it will cost you, just show up at Ncat and plead your case it’s a civil and administrative tribunal they just hear your side and there’s then decided who is in the right and who is in the wrong

      if the ACCC get enough complaints they will take a class action, it happened with fords transmission fiasco

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Atherton View Post
        Haha mate, she's realised that you're serious :P
        Yeah, I'd love the prado (mines a D4D) to have a bit more getup and go, but it's not worth chipping or remapping a D4D as it's asking for trouble with injectors and holes in pistons (that's the sese I get from reading around anway- might be some who have had success, but it's not something I'd be willing to risk without putting better pistons in and new injectors). It's a real shame about them as there are still good diesels around- You don't hear too much grief from 70 series owners. I know there was oil chewing going on early but I think a lot of that was down to guys doing their own services and using incorrect specs and weights. The Izuzu 4j1 and Duramax engines are great and Cummins still make an outstanding engine in the 4BT/ 6BT- It's not as though it can't be done, but Toyota have fell well below the mark of something like a 1HD-FTE.

        I'd imagine that the Y62 would be a lot more comfortable than the prado on big trips and it'd have more space for sure- and the power would be exceptional no doubt. I know about the only things you see Y62's doing on youtube is either pulling power runs from 0-100 or racing up sanddunes (which to be fair seems to be what they were designed for- Hello Saudi Arabia). It's frustrating as a Toyota owner that you know that they're able to make better engines but they don't have to- People keep buying them in droves, I know I went to my local show recently and the salesman there told me there was a crazy waiting period for a 70 series in graphite and a 4 week waiting period for a VX 200 series in the same colour- Why would Toyota bother spending money on R&D if people keep queing up to buy them....
        The thing is Toyota do make good motors the issues are usually with parts outsourced from manufacturers like denso

        The D4D had some not so great pistons which they eventually re designed but even the not so good ones left unchipped are not an issue

        count the amount of D4D motors in active use V dead ones you’ll find the % are fairly good in comparison to other motors

        I agree the 1VD and 1HD are far better motors than the D4D as they can take a fair hiding and still go 600-800+k, injectors are still an issue with these motors too and there’s 8 on the 1VD to worry about but injectors are an issue for all CRDs

        As for the 1GD only time will tell, you can’t judge the motor on a exhaust emissions device which will get sorted eventually if people keep making noise

        one gripe with the new prado in an auto is the stupid gearing might as well be a 5spd and it seems all that was to give some crappy unrealistic fuel consumption figure

        Comment


        • Unfortunately I joined the white smoke of DPF death club last week. This is after 63,000km of trouble free driving. I had the car back at the dealership where I bought it today and the outcome was that the DPF was showing 100% accumulation and had recorded several failed regeneration attempts. A forced regen was carried out and accumulation level was bought back to 2%, fixed!! When I enquired as to how I could prevent this from reoccurring I was told maybe if the vehicle was carrying out a burn I should let the vehicle run until the burn is complete. I pointed out the fact that Toyota had decided to cut the operator completely out of the regeneration process and there is no indication as to its status. “You might notice that the idle is a little higher during a burn”, great, so now I have to be a D4D whisperer. “Listen dear, she’s panting a bit harder, maybe she’s trying to tell us something?”. All jokes aside I really don’t think this is satisfactory and it was telling to find the DPF switches installed on the new LC200s and 70 Series in the showroom but not the Prado. I asked one of the salesmen “what are these for?” Answer “dunno!”
          i have to say the dealership was very good. I rang them on Thursday and was booked in first thing Monday no questions asked. I don’t get the vehicle serviced there and there where no questions about the snorkel, prefilter, catch can and other non standard bits I have added. They where polite and efficient for which I am grateful. I think this is a problem that is being poorly handled by Toyota and the dealers are left to carry the can.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Faulco View Post
            Unfortunately I joined the white smoke of DPF death club last week. This is after 63,000km of trouble free driving. I had the car back at the dealership where I bought it today and the outcome was that the DPF was showing 100% accumulation and had recorded several failed regeneration attempts. A forced regen was carried out and accumulation level was bought back to 2%, fixed!! When I enquired as to how I could prevent this from reoccurring I was told maybe if the vehicle was carrying out a burn I should let the vehicle run until the burn is complete. I pointed out the fact that Toyota had decided to cut the operator completely out of the regeneration process and there is no indication as to its status. “You might notice that the idle is a little higher during a burn”, great, so now I have to be a D4D whisperer. “Listen dear, she’s panting a bit harder, maybe she’s trying to tell us something?”. All jokes aside I really don’t think this is satisfactory and it was telling to find the DPF switches installed on the new LC200s and 70 Series in the showroom but not the Prado. I asked one of the salesmen “what are these for?” Answer “dunno!”
            i have to say the dealership was very good. I rang them on Thursday and was booked in first thing Monday no questions asked. I don’t get the vehicle serviced there and there where no questions about the snorkel, prefilter, catch can and other non standard bits I have added. They where polite and efficient for which I am grateful. I think this is a problem that is being poorly handled by Toyota and the dealers are left to carry the can.
            You’d hate to tell the mrs that on a hot summers day AC on she will be there for days

            This talk of having to go for drives to clear it or wait on idle till it finishes, which could very well be hours Is nothing sort of ridiculous

            simple it failed while the car was being used for its intended purpose like a car

            If it needs extra special treatment that any other car does not need we should have been made aware when purchasing the vehicle

            If they don’t fix it pass all that info onto the ACCC they will have a field day with this

            Toyota know all to well that rubbish they are feeding people will not fly if the matter is taken further, but you would be surprised how many people just accept it, hence why they try it on

            Keep us posted,

            Comment


            • Having had this done twice, here's my two cents worth. When you go in with white smoke - don't leave until you have them order a new DPF.

              It won't 'come good'. If nothing else, it's been damaged already.

              Be forthright when you demand it. It's a very, very, very well known issue that all dealers are aware of. If it helps, lie your ar$e off and tell them it's been happening for the last, I dunno - 5000km? Tell them it's not a one off. And you can ask to see photo's of the work done - this is helpful when you tell them to clean the 5th injector and you want photo's. Yes, I am aware there is apparently a bulletin out there now saying not to touch the 5th injector as it's apparently not the problem. However, argue that until they DO find the problem, you want it checked regardless.

              I've never had to push so hard to get a fault rectified. Second time was fine - I think the look in my eyes told the service manager just to fold on that one. But it shouldn't need this. I also got tired of the first thing they rattle off being "you should take it for a long drive"... I did over 62K km's in my 2016 model in 18 months, and with only two kids that I know of, it wasn't full of school runs.

              FWIW - speaking with the engineer from Toyota who eventually came to the party (after I parked the car in the service driveway for another issue and wouldn't move it until it was looked at), he pointed out that the air cooling around the DPF works a little too well at 100km/h and above, with it tucked up at the back of the engine bay. So he showed me in the owners manual where it states you should drive at (from memory) 65 - 80km/h for an extended drive, as it won't cool down as much and can get to it's heat. So that was another excuse used - as about 70% of my driving is in 70 - 80km/h speed area's.

              As Rockhop alludes to - they market the car as a suburban vehicle that's very capable for the occasional extended touring/ weekend 4WD set, so there should be no reason the purchaser of said $65K+++ vehicle should have to take special precautions, unless they're outlined when you purchase the car. Such as my little special precaution, when I ended up driving around with a 5L bottle of oil in the boot for the last 15,000km I owned it. The last car I did that with was a 1978 Toyota Crown owned by dad (good car too!).

              Comment


              • Originally posted by CamJam View Post
                Having had this done twice, here's my two cents worth. When you go in with white smoke - don't leave until you have them order a new DPF.

                It won't 'come good'. If nothing else, it's been damaged already.

                Be forthright when you demand it. It's a very, very, very well known issue that all dealers are aware of. If it helps, lie your ar$e off and tell them it's been happening for the last, I dunno - 5000km? Tell them it's not a one off. And you can ask to see photo's of the work done - this is helpful when you tell them to clean the 5th injector and you want photo's. Yes, I am aware there is apparently a bulletin out there now saying not to touch the 5th injector as it's apparently not the problem. However, argue that until they DO find the problem, you want it checked regardless.

                I've never had to push so hard to get a fault rectified. Second time was fine - I think the look in my eyes told the service manager just to fold on that one. But it shouldn't need this. I also got tired of the first thing they rattle off being "you should take it for a long drive"... I did over 62K km's in my 2016 model in 18 months, and with only two kids that I know of, it wasn't full of school runs.

                FWIW - speaking with the engineer from Toyota who eventually came to the party (after I parked the car in the service driveway for another issue and wouldn't move it until it was looked at), he pointed out that the air cooling around the DPF works a little too well at 100km/h and above, with it tucked up at the back of the engine bay. So he showed me in the owners manual where it states you should drive at (from memory) 65 - 80km/h for an extended drive, as it won't cool down as much and can get to it's heat. So that was another excuse used - as about 70% of my driving is in 70 - 80km/h speed area's.

                As Rockhop alludes to - they market the car as a suburban vehicle that's very capable for the occasional extended touring/ weekend 4WD set, so there should be no reason the purchaser of said $65K+++ vehicle should have to take special precautions, unless they're outlined when you purchase the car. Such as my little special precaution, when I ended up driving around with a 5L bottle of oil in the boot for the last 15,000km I owned it. The last car I did that with was a 1978 Toyota Crown owned by dad (good car too!).
                Hi Camjam,

                forgive me for my forgetfulness, were you moving on from the prado due to this issue ?

                I agree with everything you have said, you have to be firm, and I know it sounds like I’m harmping on but every one should be noting it with the ACCC they will eventually force them to rectify the issue if enough complaints are raised, let’s be honest if every one that has had a prado DPF issue called up tomorrow they would take it up immediately.

                It is clear they have an issue and are well aware of it, like all business they are trying it on that’s std practice annoying and it is really going to hurt them, this is our 4th Toyota 4wd diesel, this does not get fixed it’s the last

                I will be on the phone to them next week to have ours replaced, had the smoke clouds a month ago they did a forced regen and 2 weeks later more clouds even funnier it was straight after a 1hour drive averaging about 85km/h which it was in the process of a burn during that whole hour of non stop driving

                how can a burn take more than an hour of non stop driving at 70-95km/h ?

                I just hope they have a new design or I guess I’ll be back here in another year or so
                Last edited by Rockhop; 04-06-2018, 09:11 PM.

                Comment


                • CamJam and Rockhop I hear what you say. To me just doing a forced regen to fix the problem is a bit like steam cleaning the engine to fix an oil leak, there you go, good as new. But it has now been formally recorded that my DPF failed during the warranty period and I will expect that any future problems with the DPF will fixed under warranty regardless of when it occurs (and I have no doubt it will fail). My real concern is that it’s going to let me down in the middle of nowhere so if someone can recommend a good OBDII scanner preferably one with easy regen commands it’d be appreciated.
                  Cheers Faulco
                  Faulco
                  Junior Member
                  Last edited by Faulco; 05-06-2018, 05:43 PM.

                  Comment


                  • I’ve just been away to Bunbury for the weekend (200 km south) and watched my DPF status on my app an noticed something interesting/odd/worrying. App shows DPF%, exhaust temp (out of engine) and temp into the DPF.

                    I left home with the DPF at around 70%. Car and camper trailer, cruising at 100 km/hr in 6th, 2000 RPM (manual gearbox). Between 70% and 100% DPF in temp roughly tracks exhaust out temp of around 450C as I’m cruising along.

                    So the DPF gets to 100%, and then I watch the temp into the DPF rise as it starts to do a burn. It rises to around 530C max, sits there which I thought was unusual as for other DPF burns it normally gets well above 600C. Then for the next 50 km the DPF in temp seems to cycle between high 400C’s and low 500C’s, and the DPF sits at 100%. So as CamJam says it is as if at speed there is too much cooling and it can’t reach the regen temperatures.

                    Once we reached Bunbury traffic and slowed a bit it got the temperatures up and did a regen.

                    So for 50km it was sending fuel down the exhaust for no gain. And at the detriment of fuel economy and who knows what damage to the downstream stuff running at that temperature for an extended period. This is particularly annoying for me as we often do drives to our farm (500 km away) and it looks like there may be situations it will try and regen the whole way, and just use a whole lot of fuel for no gain.

                    This may also explain why our fuel economy seems to be 2 L/100km higher than others are getting - we spend a lot of time highway driving. And were planning a year on the road next year around Australia.....

                    I would be very interested to know if the fuel economy figures quoted for the Prado include the DPF 5th injector? VW all over again?
                    LeadWings
                    Member
                    Last edited by LeadWings; 05-06-2018, 01:46 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Just had a very interesting response from my local service manager when I e-mailed him as above. Un-surprisingly Toyota are working this hard and hopefully have a fix coming out.

                      Details of how the system works are also very interesting - as suspected the ECU is not currently using the DPF differential pressure to calculate if a regen is required, but the update is planned to. Also interesting insights into what Toyota are seeing as the source of the problem.

                      "Interesting to see the data you’re referring is corresponding to our own reports we’ve got going and what we’ve been submitting to TMCA and TMC in Japan. What you’re seeing there is correct for the current programming of the vehicle and half the reason why they’re creating occasional issues. We’ve just had a big state meeting on DPFs and the global response from Toyota to the ongoing issues with them and they’ve relaxed a little and given us more specific information.

                      What was most interesting and informative relates to the calculation of the DPF obstruction status. The DPF capacity figure is largely and primarily based on an ECU calculated algorithm. It doesn’t seem to use the actual pressure differential sensor readings as much as the DPFs on the 1KDs in the Hiace vans and 1VDs in the 200 Series Landcruiser. This algorithm is based on a specific batch of testing vehicles when this engine was developed and utilised a test-bed DPF filter with 300,000km of simulated use. The long, slow burn is designed to maximise longevity of the DPF so it is still effective at that mileage. What they have been finding is that there are small differences to actual engine operation, creating differences of +/-10% to algorithm accuracy, depending on the individual characteristics of the vehicle. This leads to an incorrect calculation of particulate matter (PM) inside the DPF, which means that it cannot accurately regenerate the filter. There is an engine ECU recalibration being tested in five vehicles in the country as we speak and results are positive, both in terms of the white smoke issue and improvement in fuel economy. They are hoping to roll this ECM recalibration out across the range of 1GD engine vehicles by October-November. This calibration remaps the ECU logic to make it use the pressure differential sensors as a priority reading for DPF obstruction, rather than the algorithm based calculation. It also changes the nature of the DPF regeneration, remapping it to take half the time and increase temperatures for a more aggressive, faster-completing regeneration.

                      What you are seeing on your data recording is the crux of the problem. It was assumed at highway speeds, when the engine was being developed, that there would be a high enough fuel volume (temperature) and enough time to complete a DPF regeneration at highway speeds, but in reality, there is a large amount of ‘cooling’ airflow coming out from the engine (Approximately 450 degrees), that acts to cool the filter right as it is attempting to do a regeneration (At 550-650 degrees). What occurs in this scenario, is a binding of PM to the particles of diesel fuel injected into the DPF, which internally clogs the DPF. This leads to an extended period where the ECM is attempting a regeneration, but it cannot achieve the temperatures required due to the large volume of cool air rushing through the DPF. The first ECM recalibration addressed this fact, it reduced the amount of fuel being injected into the engine, injection timing was delayed, turbo boost pressure was reduced and DPF injection volume was lowered/removed, as a way of attempting to raise DPF temperature and prevent the clogging of the monoliths inside, due to the presence of unburned fuel. This was not successful in all cases, as it was more addressing a symptom, than the actual fault – a blanket algorithm that was not correct for all vehicles. The new calibration brings the DPF regeneration treatment into alignment with the operation of the 1VD and 1KD vehicles by using the pressure differential sensors to actually measure DPF obstruction. We have not had any issues with DPF regenerations and white smoke with Hiaces or 200 Series Landcruisers so far. It also looks likely that it will lift the vehicles into a Euro VI bracket for emissions, as well as improving fuel economy.

                      The short version of this is, yes, what you’re seeing is normal, for now. There is no risk to the DPF for being at sustained high temperatures (They are designed to withstand over 1000 degrees). The ECM is not constantly spraying fuel down the exhaust (Even with our more aggressive manual regenerations, it is a .1 second pulse injector operation once every 10-15 seconds) and will avoid this entirely if the conditions for a regeneration are not met. There will be a remapped ECM calibration to fix this issue out in the next few months which we are confident will address these issues. I don’t know if vehicle owners will be notified of this update when it comes out, but it will all be done under warranty conditions and should automatically be loaded onto each vehicle’s work order when booked in for servicing.

                      I hope this addresses your concerns."

                      Comment


                      • Thank you for posting, your dealer seems to know more than most! At the risk of "I told you so" this appears to be what Cuda, myself and several others have suspected, that the regen cycle is controlled by an algorithm rather than the actual state of the DPF % soot level
                        It sounds like this could fix the issue although the reason for the ECU acting this way was to prolong the life of the DPF, it seems odd they have decided that it will stand higher temperatures after all?
                        Would you mind if I copy/paste this to the Fortuner forum or perhaps provide a link to your post?
                        JohnLynn
                        Senior Member
                        Last edited by JohnLynn; 05-06-2018, 05:29 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Rockhop View Post

                          Hi Camjam,

                          forgive me for my forgetfulness, were you moving on from the prado due to this issue ?
                          Pick up the new non-DPF, non-EGR, non-Turbo, non-AdBlue car on Friday - trading the 21 month old Prado in. It was another issue with the engine (potentially related) that was the last straw. DPF's started the roller coaster. It's good to hear
                          LeadWings
                          Member
                          LeadWings that they're working on a better fix - I sincerely hope they do fix it.

                          It also marries up with my previous comment that the Toyota Engineer told me that at 100km/h there was too much cooling for it to get hot enough (mind new - it's not new information, or information that suddenly came from anyone at Toyota Japan 'relaxing' information flow, as I was told this by an Aus Toyota Engineer last February). That explains my two DPFs - I used to have an 86km one-way trip to work and then back each day - about 80km of it was at 110km/h. So I guess that left the weekend for a burn or when out tottering around the ranges.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by CamJam View Post

                            Pick up the new non-DPF, non-EGR, non-Turbo, non-AdBlue car on Friday - trading the 21 month old Prado in. It was another issue with the engine (potentially related) that was the last straw. DPF's started the roller coaster. It's good to hear
                            LeadWings
                            Member
                            LeadWings that they're working on a better fix - I sincerely hope they do fix it.

                            It also marries up with my previous comment that the Toyota Engineer told me that at 100km/h there was too much cooling for it to get hot enough (mind new - it's not new information, or information that suddenly came from anyone at Toyota Japan 'relaxing' information flow, as I was told this by an Aus Toyota Engineer last February). That explains my two DPFs - I used to have an 86km one-way trip to work and then back each day - about 80km of it was at 110km/h. So I guess that left the weekend for a burn or when out tottering around the ranges.
                            Yeah it’s a shame,
                            if we had known our prado setup as a tourer was going to be using 13lts per 100 around the outer burbs unloaded we would have purchased something els..

                            I think the petrol equivalent would be using less.

                            The comment about backing off boost, fuel and timing makes sense, for a while I have noticed it goes really well sometimes and struggles other times

                            to be honest it’s been how long and they are still trying to sort this out, How much did They make make last year.
                            it just can’t be that hard for a company of this size.

                            There sales will take a big hit eventually this whole fiasco is making them look very dodge indeed, ever second day now you hear or see a smoking Toyota

                            What did you buy CamJam ?
                            Last edited by Rockhop; 05-06-2018, 07:04 PM.

                            Comment


                            • I do like that response , and it does make sense - BUT , it doesnt address the fact that the DPF sensor pipes need to be cleaned out while the DPF is replaced . and if those tubes block up then we are back to square one. And what are they doing to make sure the 5th doesnt get blocked as it is now?

                              thanks for the update BTW Leadwings im glad you have an honest service manager

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Rockhop View Post

                                What did you buy CamJam ?
                                The only petrol 4WD capable of touring with a family of four... Nissan Y62 Patrol (at least, at $70K drive away, it's $20+K less than the LC V8 Petrols best quote, so for me it was a no brainer). So far the average fuel consumption has gone down to 14.8-ish (driving a work one at the moment - pick up mine on Friday) so I am happy with that. When the DPF was clean and good, I'd get 10.8 or so in the Prado - high 12's when it started to clog up (never saw less than 11 in the preceding 15,000km's). Having said that, when the Bar, rack and tyres go on I expect to get it up above 15 again. I'm budgeting for 17L/100 which for me has me paying around $900 per 15,000km's over and above the Prado fuel bill. Still get 1000km range (just) out of a tank.

                                If they had still sold the Petrol Prado, it's where I would have gone as I'd have been able to shift all my accessories over to it - but from what I am hearing I am getting just as good economy from the V8. And having the ability to overtake in something less than 1000m is a good feeling again.

                                One thing I will say - this forum sh*ts all over the others from what I can see in terms of knowledge, peeps helping others out and activity. This I will miss!

                                Comment

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