extra fuel filter

[Bluedog16 Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bluedog16]

Hey David, agree with all David has said (confusing hey).

Everything D4DDave has said I agree with, plus he has missed one important thing, that being if the factory filter is the last filter before the engine, no warranty issues. For this reason alone I would stick to setting it up as a pre filter.

Clever thinking with the water sensor, I was trying to work out a neat way of doing this, I think you've solved this for me.

Cheers
Andy

Hi Andrew,

Why would you have Warranty issues with the Racor fitted Post? Is it because as David said above that you have no way of knowing if it is blocked with debris (or water when driving )?

Please excuse my ignorance but is the clear plastic bowl underneath empty in operation and fills with the water only when detected or is there diesel in their all the time and the water is then added to it when detected/separated ?

Have you added a length of plastic tube to the water release 'nipple' underneath to direct the waste away to a more suitable spot rather than have it spill on to the guard directly underneath?

Can you while using AMTS 's bracket use the water release and empty any collected water or do you have to unbolt the Racor until from the bracket to do this operation?

A different way of dealing with any collected water was mentioned to me by an Enzed manager. He has a Racor fitted and said you can get an optional extra part that automatically releases any water trapped. It has a sensor that releases water when it gets to a certain level. You can be driving along and it just does it - you wouldn't know. It needs 12V power to it. It just screws in to the bowl underneath. Cost I don't know.
Whether you have enough room with AMTS's bracket I am not sure as there is not a lot of clearance at the bottom.
Whether this is as good an option as David's idea above I wouldn't know.

I welcome your thoughts once again
thanks
David

[D4DDave Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4DDave]

David,

I won't comment on Toyota warranty as I don't represent Toyota

The plastic bowl is simply an extension of the vessel that is the filter catridge - the entire vessel is filled with diesel, and the concept is that given that the specific gravity of water is heavier than that of diesel, the water will naturally separate and fall out to the bottom where it can be detected (if the sensor is fitted and/or visually seen through the bowl) and drained.

For those interested (I attended an information session at Cooma Diesel recently) the argument that proponents of Water Watch present is that at the flow rates involved in common rail diesel engines, the water will not have time to fall out to the bottom before being pushed through the filter element. They argue that filter separators (like the Racor, Fuel Manager and the factory filter) are very effective filters, but only effective at separating water at the slower flow rates of older style diesel engines, or when sitting overnight. The Water Watch (and other similar devices) contain a diffuser to force the fuel/water to the bottom of the bowl at it enters the device. How the high flow rates don't force the fuel to swirl around and therefore result in any water rising and potentially being expelled out the outlet port I am unsure. As I said, difficult decison. The proponents of Water Watch also argue that the additional suction load of adding an extra filter is bad for the injection pump, and that adding such a filter (in a PRE configuration) will definately bring on the factory warning light. However, there are plenty of users on this forum who run exactly this configuration even with low micron rating filters and the light does not come on - so a bit of a hole in their argument there I thought . They actually demonstrated that adding an additional filter approximately doubled the suction load at the injection pump. However, I didn't see any evidence whether double the suction at the values involved is actually a problem. As for water, their claim (not demonstrated) was that the Fuel Manager held ~100mL of water initially, but after a few minutes (at common rail flow rates) let it pass, and that if more than 100mL of water was introduced, water passed through the Fuel Manager immediately.

Out of interest, has anyone who has fitted an aftermarket filter PRE the factory filter ever detected water in the aftermarket filter's bowl and also verified than none passed through into the factory filter's water trap (by draining the factory water trap I mean, not by relying on absence of the factory water-in-fuel warning light)?

I think the idea is that you remove the Racor from AMTS' bracket to drain any water. This is the only practical way to do it even with the factory filter. It's not very hard or time consuming, and saves making a mess of the engine bay. Hopefully having to do so is a rare occurence!

Cheers,

David.

[AussieAndy Find all posts View Profile Close AussieAndy]

Hey guys,

As for the Toyota warranty, I can only relay what I was told by a trusted service manager that works for a Toyota dealer. I didn't ask why, and he probably doesn't know either. I would be guessing at the additional suction it could cause being unmetered by the little sensor on top of the factory filter. I guess this is only hearsay, and without it in writing from Toyota it means very little, but why chance it.

The reason we use such a high flow rate filter is to avoid additional load on the lift pump (try sucking through a straw and then a length of garden hose, garden hose has higher flow rate and therefore less suction). If for some reason this filter got blocked or had an internal failure causing blockage, yes the suction would increase, but that's what we have the sensor on the factory filter for.

I have seen many filter systems where the pre filter has water present and the main filter does not. Some of the Isuzu trucks we service have a water separator type filter on the chassis, and a engine mounted filter. These are set up as a staggered micron rating, and we quite often see the pre filter with water and algue present, as well as dirt and other debris. The engine filter, while dirty, usually has no major solids in the bottom, no algue, and no water. On some customers trucks we replace the chassis filter every service (15-20k) and leave the engine filter for every second service. This is quite satisfactory in my oppinion, as the engine filter has to do a lot less work.

On smaller Isuzu trucks, it is an option to get the racor filter fitted as a pre filter where no factory filter is fitted. This is a dealer fit option, and I have seen similar results to those above.

I have heard stuff about filters not having enough time to seperate the water, well trucks have been running this style effectively for years, and they flow a lot more fuel than our little motors ever will. There filters are also bigger, so I guess with the appropriate sized filter it will still work. Racor rate the filters were talking about to flow a lot more than we require, and have done the testing on water separation so I am satisfied that it will work.

I have not seen the automatic water release mechanism, it sounds interesting, but I would always be wondering if it was going to work properly. I am happy with having to empty the water myself, as this also gives me an idea of the fuel quality I am getting. To empty the filter I do undo the bolts and then just pump it out onto the inner guard, but I clean under the bonnet every time I wash the car, just a good spray of truck wash will clean it off easy.

I am not saying fitting it after the factory filter is wrong, or fitting it as a pre filter is the only right way to do it. I would happily fit the filter in either location for a customer, but when asked my recommendation I will say as a pre filter for these reasons.

Cheers
Andy

[Rusty62 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Rusty62]

Set up in our 120.


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[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

No Dilemma

Good info here.

Put the finest filter last. Simple. Factory one I believe is 5 micron.

[BlakMoth Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close BlakMoth]

Yep a very good read this has become. This is one mod I haven't done yet so still reading up on it


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[Bluedog16 Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bluedog16]

Thank you both David and Andrew for your responses.

I feel I need to be able to change a filter and bleed any water present on my own as I could have an issue on the road without any support available so excuse me for my questions as I stumble onward.

Excuse my simple questions.

I understand it is easier to remove the Racor from AMTS's bracket to change the filter which makes perfect sense so when doing so:-
1. Is there a pressure build up still in the fuel hose from the tank to the Racor inlet and so it will flow out as I remove it?
2. If so is there any tricks to stop this? -do you plug the fuel hose with anything once removed or it won't leak if held upwards?
3. Is it better to fill the new filter with some diesel before reconnecting or just prime it? (at home OK but difficult on the road)
4. Is the vent plug only done up finger tight or use a spanner?
5. Do you have to also have to prime the Toyota filter after having primed the Racor?


hope this makes sense

thanks
David

[AussieAndy Find all posts View Profile Close AussieAndy]

Hi David,

The filter is actually under a slight vacuum while the engine is running, so there will be no pressure build up. When you pull the hoses off a small amount of fuel will leak out, but bugger all really, a carefully placed rag will easily absorb it all.

I have never bothered to plug hoses, but have never left the hoses open for extended periods of time or in a very dusty environment. If worried I guess you could put a bit of rag over the open ends to stop dust or debris.

I was taught to never fill the filter with diesel before spinning it on, the reason behind this is when pouring the fuel in some of the fuel will flow through the filter, but some won't. By priming the whole filter, all the fuel flows through the filter, and is correctly filtered.

If only the racor filter has been removed, only the racor filter should need priming. After closing up the priming point on the racor, you could give the toyota pump a few pumps until resistance it felt, then start the vehicle and it sould be fine. If it stalls just pump up the toyota pump again and start the vehicle, it may wind over a bit, but will "self prime" very quickly with a bit off assistance.

No need to apologise for the questions, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask, especially if you need to know the answer later on in one of these roadside situations.

Cheers
Andy

[AussieAndy Find all posts View Profile Close AussieAndy]

Good info here.

Put the finest filter last. Simple. Factory one I believe is 5 micron.

Very true ####, problem is some people are asking should I fit a 2 micron filter after, or a 10 micron before. Racor make both to fit the filter housing we are talking about. I think this is what has caused this question to rise, that and the fact fuel manager can supply a 2 micron kit to use as a post filter.

I am also under the impression the factory filter is roughly 5 micron, but have no hard written evidence from Toyota to back this up. Toyota clearly beleive that this is fine enough for the engine, and I beleive them. This exercise, for me at least, is about removing water and largeish debris before it gets to the factory filter, allowing it to do its job easier and maybe even last a bit longer.

Cheers,
Andy

[Rusty62 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Rusty62]

Toyota will want you to believe anything from their hand book. Like the oil they use is the best or only genuine brake pads are the best or their fuel filters are the best.
For the most this will be true but for those of us who push the envelope past the city limits, the original parts may need that little extra. This is why so many have installed extra fuel filters, or aftermarket brake pads and use non toyota oils.
As far as fuel filters the original unit will be fine for the majority but dirty or moisture in diesel can cause huge damage to injectors and pumps. Lots of people have suffered from condensation developing in tanks during cold nights like in the desert. Car works hard during the day and the tanks get hot, night time temperature may get to 0 deg or colder. The result will be any condensation in the diesel will condense then sink to the bottom of the tank and guess where the fuel pick up is?

We fitted the extra filter not to make the original last longer but to protect the pump and injectors. We also replace them at the same time and intervals.

Rusty.

[Bluedog16 Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bluedog16]

Hi Andy,
I will install my Racor as a pre filter.
Did you need to cut or replace any of the existing rubber fuel line to instal your Racor with AMTS's bracket to make it fit?
I am thinking it might be easier to completely take off the sort hose from the tank to the 'inline' of the Toyota filter (and store it away) as it has a few set bends in it and instead replace with a length of new straight hose to the Racor - and then another new straight piece on to the Toyota filter.
This way I can easily restore to original condition with the Toyota hose if I ever wish to remove the Racor filter.
Or did you just use it as is?

Thanks
David

[Wagon Man Member Find all posts View Profile Close Wagon Man]

Just use it as is ...

You will require an additional 50cm length of fuel hose.

[AussieAndy Find all posts View Profile Close AussieAndy]

Sorry David, exactly as wagon man says except I cut a little off the factory hose so it all lined up neatly. I only needed about 30cm of hose for mine, nice and easy to do.

[Bluedog16 Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bluedog16]

Sorry David, exactly as wagon man says except I cut a little off the factory hose so it all lined up neatly. I only needed about 30cm of hose for mine, nice and easy to do.

Hi Andy,
Racor using AMTS's bracket all installed today!

Thank you all very much for your help, particularly your info and support Andy.

I like how you can instantly look and check out the fuel bowl for the presence of water. It gives me now peace of mind.

I notice that there is basically no room under the bottom of drain plug and the bracket. Only a piece of paper can fit between them. I can touch the drain plug and maybe undo the drain plug as long as it don't move downwards. If I ever need to bleed the collection bowl can I just loosen the drain plug as is, or do I need to take the filter of the bracket to be able to loosen and then drain the collection bowl?

thanks
David

[AussieAndy Find all posts View Profile Close AussieAndy]

Hey David,

Mine has just, and I mean just enough room to loosen the drain cock. If it was in a different location (the bowl was spun further, or not as far around) then I would have trouble or it would be impossible. Once it is loosened, just pump the primer a couple of times (the one on the racor unit) and fuel/water should come out. If you have to loosen the bracket bolts its a bit painful, but not the end of the world hey.

No worries about the help, it's all give and take. Just helps I have first hand experience with this exact thing, I'm learning a bit off others in other areas from this forum, so all good. Enjoy the peace of mind, but remember, the injectors are still a wear and tear item.

Cheers
Andy