Another towing question. Stay with Prado or upgrade to a 200 series Cruiser

[mat-with-one-t Member Find all posts View Profile Close mat-with-one-t]

Hi again everyone. I was hoping to think out loud here and get some opinions! I will go over what we HAVE, then what we PLAN TO DO, and the question remaining will be:
Is it time to get a bigger car? Please let me know if any of my musings are misguided.

The plan:

- We currently (easily) tow a ~1600kg (fully loaded) Cub Escape camper trailer, with a ball weight of about 160kg.

- We hope to soon upgrade to a Hybrid offroad camper. Proper offroad specs a must. We have shortlisted a range of Aussie built units (AOR, Alpine, Rhinomax, Offline, etc) - single axle units
~14-15" long. All have an dry trailer around 1600kg to about 1900kg, and all have an ATM approaching 2500kg. We don't wish to go any bigger. Most of these have a ball weight between 160kg and 180kg.

Our tow car no longer needs to be a family car, so can be purely set up for touring.

We hope to do a full lap WA trip over 6 months to 1 yr in about 2 years, and always do lots of shorted trips anyway. Most involve offroad travel.

Our current setup:
2015 3.0lt Prado 150 VX diesel - kerb 2450kg. GVM 2990kg = 540kg payload (give or take)
Only added a towbar (34kg), rear heavy rubber mat (maybe 5 or so kg) and roof racks.

What I would wish to do (to the Prado):
Bullbar (maybe AFN) 80kg
2nd battery and wiring 35kg
Rhino backbone and platform 27kg
Larger tyres approx 25kg additional
winch 25kg
lift kit (given KDSS, it would likely be Dobinsons or Outback Armour with rear bags for towing) - don't know if this adds much weight?
Radio/antennas/driving lights/etc - maybe 10kg

So as I roughly see it, the list above adds up to 202kg. Add the (existing) towbar and rubber mat and we get 241kg

IF only missus and myself, we add 130kg. Now we are at 231+130 = 371kg.

Add hybrid camper ball weight (average 170kg), and now we have 371+170 = 541kg

So a kerb (I am aware these numbers can be all over the place) 2450 + 541 = 2991kg

So I come to full GVM when we have a totally empty car with 2 people on board and a hybrid camper hooked up.

I can remove rear seats, however they'd be replaced by drawers which will get filled with recovery gear, maybe a spare fridge, etc! Add a few bags and crap on the roof, and we are easily over, and we haven't even started on tow weights and overall towing performance and car wear and tear.

Proper GVM upgrades are offered by Lovells, but I've read that ride (unladen) can be pretty rough. Outback Armour and Dobinsons technically add a little GVM, but it sounds like this is quite expensive to have properly signed off, and may not be recognised in other States?

COSTS:
All the stuff (before labour) would likely be at least $10k.

I do not like the idea of pushing any machine close to its specified limit, even if it is technically legal.

SO:

I looked at a 200 series Landcruiser 2019 Sahara that is already GVM 3800kg upgraded (Lovells) with all the above fruit ready for touring and about 120k on clock. The changeover from selling mine as-is and swapping to that might work out to be maybe $50k or more.

Given many articles I've read about weights, and the small allowable payload of a Prado, should I just really comfortably tow a 2000kg hybrid caravan with a bigger rig??

Thanks for anyone's opinions and guidance! Mat

[mat-with-one-t Member Find all posts View Profile Close mat-with-one-t]

Or do I get a built up 79 series and be done with it??

[Not Enough Time Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Not Enough Time]

I have a 2021 GLX with Smartbar, roofbars, driving lights, 2nd battery and airbags towing a 14ft Hybrid camper (ATM 2500kg, typical loaded 2200kg, GCM 4.98T over weighbridge). It has ample or adequate power/torque , though i believe the latter 150 series (post ca July 2020) has more power and torque.
We are two persons vehicle 2450 to 2500kg over weighbridge with full tank
I do 40k per year, about 10k towing. Eastern states have real hills, whereas in WA you generally don't.

Your choice on what you will be loading on the vehicle, but I'm very content with this vehicle-van combo.
We travel gravel roads and bitumen,. This includes Peninsula Development Rd , Birdsville track, Plenty Highway, Strzelecki track.

Yep 200 series will be better tow vehicle, our 2021 Prado is competent though, up to you how you spend your money. For us, I can't justify a bigger vehicle.

[gunda Member Find all posts View Profile Close gunda]

I have a 2021 Kakadu towing an offroad hybrid that has a tare of 1800Kg and an ATM of 2495Kg. The Prado is a very caaable tow vehicle, no doubt helped by it being the 150KW engine. But it it gets very close to its GVM, and that's without having even installed much of the usual 4WD fruit (no front bar, no winch, no roof rack, no drawers) and having taken out the rear seats aand having a stable van with a ball weight of 180Kg or less. I have explored the GVM upgrade option several times, and each time I've given up. I don't really want a lift, and I definitely don't want a KDSS lean, and I am not keen on removing the rear air bags. In the ACT we can only get an upgrade of 260Kg.

If I had my time again I may get a VX 200 series, Why? I could get a GVM upgrade, which would leave the option upen to upgrade the van and install 4WD accessories. There would be easier towing up hills. But it's less an around town vehicle and the fuel consumption would be worse, which are the reasons iI baulked in the first place. It's not a clear-cut decision.

[mat-with-one-t Member Find all posts View Profile Close mat-with-one-t]

Yes all valid thoughts and similar to my issues. One difference for us would be that we don't require the 4WD for anything but 4WD duties. I am reluctant to consider a big WA trip without all the bolt-on gear (esp winch). Whilst it looks like you guys are pretty happy with towing a similar van, we fly very close GVM! I too have been round in circles re a GVM upgrade, and have found similar conclusions to Gunda.....

[mat-with-one-t Member Find all posts View Profile Close mat-with-one-t]

There's a local crew who do a Prado 150 GVM upgrade to 3500kg. Mostly using Dobinson's and/or Ironman I believe, which seem to be fairly well regarded. So 3500-2990=510kg extra. That may be worth a look....?

[gunda Member Find all posts View Profile Close gunda]

Local to where? I know that in NSW people get GVM upgrades to 3500Kg, but it the ACT we can only get an upgrade to the sum of the axle loadings, which is 3250Kg. Everyone I've spoke to has said this, both 4WD shops and engineers. I don't understand how NSW engineers sign off on on higher upgrades.

None of the standard GMV upgrade kits, e.g. Pedders, Dobinsons, Ironman, work for the Kakadu with its rear airbags, I had hoped that I might just be able to upgrade the airbags to heavy duty Airbagman ones, but the last 4WD shop I spoke to said that that won't work, as the bags don't have load ratings, which is what engineers want to sign off on an upgrade. Their approach was to replace the bags with springs, which I don't want to do, as the bags are useful when towing, despite the limitations they impose. This last shop came very well recommended by people I respect and seemed to know their stuff. If you are prepared to ditch the airbags, and you're in NSW, then those standard GVM upgrade options should work

[ptommo59 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ptommo59]

Local to where? I know that in NSW people get GVM upgrades to 3500Kg, but it the ACT we can only get an upgrade to the sum of the axle loadings, which is 3250Kg. Everyone I've spoke to has said this, both 4WD shops and engineers. I don't understand how NSW engineers sign off on on higher upgrades.

None of the standard GMV upgrade kits, e.g. Pedders, Dobinsons, Ironman, work for the Kakadu with its rear airbags, I had hoped that I might just be able to upgrade the airbags to heavy duty Airbagman ones, but the last 4WD shop I spoke to said that that won't work, as the bags don't have load ratings, which is what engineers want to sign off on an upgrade. Their approach was to replace the bags with springs, which I don't want to do, as the bags are useful when towing, despite the limitations they impose. This last shop came very well recommended by people I respect and seemed to know their stuff. If you are prepared to ditch the airbags, and you're in NSW, then those standard GVM upgrade options should work

Hi Gunda,

My understanding is that all the Prado 3500 kg GVM kits will have Federal Second Stage Manufacturer (SSM) approvals, which in most cases increases the max rear axle load from 1800 kg to 2050 kg (Front stays at 1450 kg) through provision of the required engineering and test data (Post Rego GVM increase even though based on Federal SSM approved kits have to be done via State mod plates).
As you have indicated the Kakadu Airbag only system (and how the aftermarket air bags are warrantied/tested/load rated) complicates the issue which is probably why there are few or no SSM options available without switching to rear springs.

[gunda Member Find all posts View Profile Close gunda]

Thanks for that clarification ptommo59. I've been thinking about this and wondering whether what I've been told about any GVM upgrade being limited to 3250Kg was specific to my Kakadu. You'd think that the local engineers and also the ACT RTA would accept the Federal SSM analysis for vehicles without rear airbags. But that wasn't the impression that was created by the last workshop I spoke with. They wanted to replace the air bags with springs and said that any increase would still be limited to 3250. Perhaps the local RTA is more conservative?

[ptommo59 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ptommo59]

The SSM process requires a specific kit, installation by their trained and authorized installer network plus extra pricing to cover SSM and Warranty inclusions, so best bet who you talked to is not on the authorised list for the GVM kit or are offering the non GVM equivalent parts version so can only offer the standard 10% or max combined axle load increase by a RTA Approved Engineer.

[watsea Member Find all posts View Profile Close watsea]

The first post in this thread mentioned larger wheels.
Larger diameter wheels for towing larger loads will mean the vehicle will lose torque performance. I would recommend against the larger diameter wheels if you are going to be towing.

[mat-with-one-t Member Find all posts View Profile Close mat-with-one-t]

The first post in this thread mentioned larger wheels.
Larger diameter wheels for towing larger loads will mean the vehicle will lose torque performance. I would recommend against the larger diameter wheels if you are going to be towing.

Thanks watsea. Yes I need to keep an eye on that. My understanding is that the resultant "gearing" from larger diameter tyres means torque loss (getting going) vs slightly lower rev range on highway (possible fuel saving and under-stressed engine), although I am also aware it's not that simple.

To clarify (as the original poster), I have a VX (NOT a Kakadu). This means KDSS suspension but NOT rear bags. IF I went down the GVM path, I would get a 50mm lift and rear airbags INSIDE THE SPRINGS for towing (reduced sag).

My "local mob" is Statewide 4x4 in Melbourne. They have a kit that moves GVM from 2990kg to 3500kg that is Engineered and signed off.

[mat-with-one-t Member Find all posts View Profile Close mat-with-one-t]

I've also gone down the rabbit hole of 79 Series builds with 4200kg GVM rear spring conversion kits. Geez. Anyone got a spare $200k lying about?
That said, it is tempting to get a new 4cyl 79 2.8 auto and just build it as a dedicated tourer....!

[mat-with-one-t Member Find all posts View Profile Close mat-with-one-t]

I have a 2021 GLX with Smartbar, roofbars, driving lights, 2nd battery and airbags towing a 14ft Hybrid camper (ATM 2500kg, typical loaded 2200kg, GCM 4.98T over weighbridge). It has ample or adequate power/torque , though i believe the latter 150 series (post ca July 2020) has more power and torque.
We are two persons vehicle 2450 to 2500kg over weighbridge with full tank
I do 40k per year, about 10k towing. Eastern states have real hills, whereas in WA you generally don't.

Your choice on what you will be loading on the vehicle, but I'm very content with this vehicle-van combo.
We travel gravel roads and bitumen,. This includes Peninsula Development Rd , Birdsville track, Plenty Highway, Strzelecki track.

Yep 200 series will be better tow vehicle, our 2021 Prado is competent though, up to you how you spend your money. For us, I can't justify a bigger vehicle.

Thanks for the comprehensive response, as that’s pretty much the setup we are thinking about. A 14’ hybrid off-roader at around 2200kg fully loaded. Would get a Prado 3500kg GVM upgrade (need new suspension soon anyway and too much sag when towing, thus rear airbags and a 50mm lift). Would likely change wheels as I have the VX 18” rims - not the best for off-road volume).

Speaking about weights, how has the Smartbar been? Do you have a winch?

1st world decisions eh??

Mat

[mat-with-one-t Member Find all posts View Profile Close mat-with-one-t]

I've also gone down the rabbit hole of 79 Series builds with 4200kg GVM rear spring conversion kits. Geez. Anyone got a spare $200k lying about?
That said, it is tempting to get a new 4cyl 79 2.8 auto and just build it as a dedicated tourer....!

Has anyone yet had experience with the new 4cyl 76 or 79 auto? I am awfully tempted to start afresh.

Mat