Something not quite right...

[reida1991 Member Find all posts View Profile Close reida1991]

Okay, I've held off asking these questions on PP because I'm too afraid of the answers I might get! Prepare for essay (sorry!)

I will begin by setting the scene and providing the circumstances over which my 2001 170 000 km 1KZ-TE Prado 95 series has been playing up.

I left the Prado with some family friends over the Christmas break. They asked if they could use it while I was away, of which I agreed happily. Whilst away, they accidentally ended up in a "deep mud puddle" and on the way home, the car began to get warm on a steep climb up the Clyde Mt on NSW South Coast (some of you may know this notorious hill). According to my friend, the temp gauge went up to around 2/3rds. It usually sits just lower than half where it just covers the bottom of the temperature symbol. I repeated the trip shortly after and had the same problem on this low speed, steep climb on a warm day of 33 deg. However, the car ran completely normal elsewhere.

The next morning, the car started very roughly and after 500 m the engine light came on and I stopped immediately. I inspected the fluids and noticed the oil was a bit low, so proceeded to top it up. The car started fine and after 20 sec the light went off and haven't had a problem since.

I haven't driven the car much at all since, so I haven't been able to give it a hard run up hill. It seems to run fine though. The only thing I notice is the gauge moves a tiny bit when I go up long hills and run down the other side. The movement is only so much as that I can just see the bottom of the temp symbol on the gauge, and when it goes down I can no longer see it, something in the order of 0.5 - 1 mm movement. I'm not sure if the car has done this since I've had it, because I've only started really watching the gauge diligently since it heated up.

So I immediately jump to the worst conclusion, the notorious 1KZ cylinder head. I pressure cleaned my radiator out and got a fair bit of shit out of it which may have contributed. There is no water vapour from the exhaust. There are no bubbles coming through the radiator. There's no pressure build up after taking off the radiator cap when its cooled down. Fuel economy is normal, power is normal.

What I would like to know is has anybody else experienced this, and what could I expect? Is there anything I can do short of forking out cash for a mechanic to diagnose the problem?

Problem two is to do with starting. 50% of the time, on start up I get a horrible grinding noise instead of a start up. If I roll the car forward, it fires perfectly! Solenoid contacts?

Finally, sorry for the essay, but I prefer to get all the information down so you experts can ponder with out having to ask for clarification.

Thanks in advance,

Reidy

[croozza Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close croozza]

How stuck in the mud were they, as it sounds like there is heaps of mud in the electrics (starter, alt, ect). The extra heat you would of fixed with cleaning out the radiator fins, you may need to ask them to pay for the repairs, it is only fair, you allowed them to use your car, not abuse it.

[reida1991 Member Find all posts View Profile Close reida1991]

Hey Crooza

The starting problem was there before they borrowed it, and it seems to be getting worse. As far as I can gather they went into the drink up to the bottom of the bullbar, but that's nothing worse than I have ever done. I don't think it explains the overheating, bar maybe the muddy radiator. I'm not worried about the money, they look after me a lot

Cheers,

Reidy

[croozza Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close croozza]

In that case you will be looking for a new starter motor very soon.

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Gday reida1991

If you fancy having ago at overhauling the starter your self here is three excellent step by step pics with full explanation to help you either semi-repair or full-on repair the starter motor thanks to "MUMSRIG / jeff s & zcruiser"

Semi-repair "MUMSRIG"
http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...+motor+rebuild

Full-on repair "jeff s"
http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...+motor+rebuild

Full-on repair provided passed on by "VL400"
http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...l=1#post208213

Actual repair by "zcruiser"
http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wa...ml#post1371930

Cheers

[reida1991 Member Find all posts View Profile Close reida1991]

Thanks a lot skywalkerrun, these look very helpful. I want to have a crack myself if I can, I hate forking out money for stuff I can do myself.




So this is what I see when I look to where I think the starter motor is, I would like to do what MUMSRIG has done, but i can't see three 8mm bolts?

FYI, The big blue thing is the oil filter on the 1KZ.

Thanks,

Reidy

[Snaga Wishing I was lost Find all posts View Profile Close Snaga]

Mumsrig is a 120 isn't it? Possibly a different setup.

[Derb Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Derb]

Hi Boss. Yup - sounds like your starter motor may need a bit of work although not too expensive to work on. They can be a real cow to get off - they will only come out from the bottom so don't even bother attempting to take them out past the oil filter. Regarding your overheating problem - have you ever topped up your fan's viscous coupling? Chances are the fan is not cutting in when the engine gets hot. On 1st start up in morning the fan should make a bit of a racket for a while then slow down until you can't hear it. Good luck.

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Gday reida1991

If you have a squiz at the other links they will give you a very good insight of the starter motor as yours is obstructed by the wiring harness etc but i believe they are identical starter motors but the 1KZ does look a bit more awkward to access than the 1KD.

By the time you have read the links and had a good look at the pics closely you will have a very good insight on what has to be done and what tools are needed!

Underneath the car looks like a good approach (Your choice) but make sure you "disconnect that battery first" as you could ("WOULD") do some serious damage if you ark that live wire out. (Electronics do not like electrical spikes. EG: You ark welding with a spanner or screwdriver). Lol

Remember that when you re-connect your battery you will have to re-set your clock and electric windows.

If the KZ is the same as the KD's all's you have to do to re-set the windows is manually wind down each window all way down,..... Hold in down position for 2 seconds then wind all the way back to closed position. This has to be done with all four windows then they will all work automatically again from the drivers switch control pannel.

If the radio has a security code on it make sure you know it before you disconnect the battery

A good point was made from "Derb" concerning your viscose clutch fan! If the clutch fan is faulty it will iether have excessive free play in it and also free spinning when the engine is hot. (When the engine is cold the fan-blade will be free spinning but as the engine heats up there should be resistance on the fan blade as they lock-up as the engine heats-up. The fan Free's off as the engine cools down. (The oil in the viscose clutch expands and causes resistance as it heats up).

Cheers

[reida1991 Member Find all posts View Profile Close reida1991]

Hey guys great info! Thanks a lot!

This viscous clutch is new to me. Can someone explain how to test it, or is it a visual thing ie. will I be able to see leaking oil? Could the viscous clutch explain the incremental movement in the gauge at different loads on the engine? To tick a few boxes: I have cleaned out the radiator, the radiator is full with new coolant and the overflow bottle has quite a bit in it also.

In regards to the starter, I haven't had a chance to climb under the vehicle and have a look yet, it's pissing down here in ACT, I haven't seen it rain like this for ages!

Reidy

[Leethal Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Leethal]

Matt, regarding your starting problem is your Prado a manual ?
If so when you roll it forward is it in gear ? If so, I think your starting issue is most likely the flywheel ring gear not the starter.
Thats horrible screech/grinding sound could be worn ring gear teeth, this happens because engines stop at the same point(s) of rotation due to cyl compression. In turn that means the starter pinion engages in the same position most of the time accellerating wear at those points (4 cyls 4 places, 6 cyl 6 places)
By rolling your Prado forward you are turning the flywheel slightly so the starter pinion gear engages at a "fresh" set of teeth.

Hope I'm wrong because it means gearbox out and dropping the flywheel to replace the ring gear or flywheel itself.

Lee

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

Reidy, to test for the head syndrome check the overflow bottle cold, should be at least halfway, take note of its level even mark it with a texter, hit the freeway and give it to it maintaining 110 as much as possible, (watch the guage) turn the aircon on as well make it work that bit harder, give it a good run for at least 20 mins if possible, then pull up some where (safe) let it idle for a minute or two then switch it off, Pop bonnet and just check out the overflow bottle, just see if it goes up big time in the level or starts to overflow out under car the heads gone and it will need replacing not repairing. I had a heap of tests done on mine and couldnt get any indication via water in oil, oil in radiator coolant, condensation out exhaust all the usual things to look for. I could drive it all week to and from work (nothing over 70k) and there was absolutely no indication it was gone, no temp rise even running aircon, overflow bottle at normal level, BUT hit the freeway for 20 mins or more and I had coolant filling the overflow bottle up and spewing out under car. It turned out it was the exhaust gases pressurising the system aand obviously the only way to expel it was via the cooling system. Myn had 103k on it when it went, ran genuine toyota coolant, oil and filter every 5k, only towed once with it and wasnt that heavy, never over heated at any stage, the only time ever I saw my guage move was when the head was gone and yes was a mill or so just over normal operating tempo which was just under half, But it only moved when on the freeway when I was trying to work out if the head was gone or not, running around at 70k no sign what so ever. It turn out the crack they get is so minimal it only opens up when pushing the vehicle harder like at 110 or so. cost me a tad under 4g to get it fixed which was a brnad new head and all the usual gaskets and things to go with it. new thermostat, radiator flushed out, new hoses etc. Every thing was spotless when it was pulled apart and the radiator was still like new inside, so it wasnt that, I tested the thermostat, worked fine (ended up bining it anyway) so there was no sign of any cause just as usual a shit design in the head and extremely common in the hilux's also running the 1kz. 120's dont seem to suffer from it as bad. Have read about a couple but no where near the amount of 90's I have read about.........I can pass on who did mine if you want (Near Penrith NSW) Hopefully its not the problem but your symptons sounded the same as mine sorry to say. Could possibly be the viscous coupling on the fan but mine was fine and still running the same one now and no issues. When you start it cold in the morning take note idle it up to around 2g and listen, you should hear the fan roaring then fade out in a few seconds, bit harder to hear over the diesel engine but if listening for it you will hear it. cheers Steve...........

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

Hey Matt, if you get a chance give me a buzz. I just wrote out what I thought could be the issue with the heating issue and my computer (which is about to get hurled out into the back yard)(Piece of shit toshiba never again) and it decided to delete it when I hit the post button grrrrrrr, I will pm you my ph number. Cheers Steve OK I have no idea what is going on but it did get posted...........???????????

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Gday reida1991

I was just reading through your explanation of flushing the radiator but it was not clear that you did thoroughly hose the external of the radiator core as this would cause hot spots on the radiator if it is fouled with mud!

As far as the viscouse clutch goes, that is the metal bit in the middle of the radiator cooling fan blade.

With the engine switched OFF you grab one blade @ 9 o'clock and the other @ 3 o'clock then check if their is any movement from left to right. There shouldn't be any but approx 2mm is acceptable. If there is damp oil around the centre then there is possible oil leak but again a small damp area is acceptable. The next test is to check the resistance on the fan blade when the engine is @ running temp.... Again you check this with the engine switched OFF. The fan blade should be tight to turn if ok. If it is easy to turn then the clutch is stuffed... When the engine is cold it will turn freely

Cheers

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

"The next test is to check the resistance on the fan blade when the engine is @ running temp.... Again you check this with the engine switched OFF. The fan blade should be tight to turn if ok. If it is easy to turn then the clutch is stuffed... When the engine is cold it will turn freely"" .................Not sure if this test always is correct. I just went out and tried myn and it hasnt been started since yesterday morning so its nice and cold and its like my 90 was. Its actually quit firm to turn while cold, you can shove it as if trying to turn it round and it will only travel an inch or two. I think that is why when they first start up they rev there nut out for 10 seconds or so then they shut up. As far as hot goes I remember my 90 not been that tight when hot either and my hilux was similiar, will try myn tomorrow as soon as I get home. I remember doing this same test on my VL commodore years ago and if you went by this theory it technicaly should have been ok. It wasnt till i nearly scalded myself (me been a novice) that I actually found the coupling to be stuffed. I put a new one on it and all was sweet before I did any damage to the motor. As said myn is still the original coupling on my diesel 90 and the current owner does an extremly lot of mountain driving and has all been sweet (yes I know the person I sold it to and they were informed about the head). Some people will say the fan doesnt lock up when cruising along, crap... they will still lock up at what ever speed your doing if it needs to. My hilux use to so did the two 90's I had although the diesel was a lot harder to hear compared to the petrol 90. I have towed car trailer and stuff behind the 90 petrol (not the diesel) and it was working hard pulling up mooney mooney, hawksbury with car trailer on the back and car sitting on it, couple of times pulling up mooney I could hear the fan cut in and roar its head off then when it cut out it was like a jet engine slowing down (if thats a good example). Keep your eye on that overflow bottle. I think this will give you any warning signs/indication if the head is gone.....Cheers Steve