Morning Rattle

[reida1991 Member Find all posts View Profile Close reida1991]

Hey guys,

My 1KZ has been starting in the morning with a very loud rattle which dies away after a few seconds, after which it runs normally. It only happens sometimes though. Any ideas what this could be?

The vehicle is 11 years and 170 00km old. I don't have the service history before 148 km, but I am beginning to think a set of glow plugs and injector service probably wouldn't go astray.

Cheers,

Reidy

[Davros Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Davros]

It will cost you $400.00 for a set of reco injectors and a new set of good quality glow plugs. 2-3 hrs work for a handyman, and a job well worth doing IMO.

Your problem could be something as simple as a bad current flow to the plugs, but replacement of the parts as above would be what I would be doing at those Kms.

[croozza Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close croozza]

What oil filter is being used, as it sounds like it has one that does not have the anti drain valve in it. So all the oil drains out back into the sump and on start up you have to get oil pressure back, and when you do it is all quiet again.

[reida1991 Member Find all posts View Profile Close reida1991]

What oil filter is being used, as it sounds like it has one that does not have the anti drain valve in it. So all the oil drains out back into the sump and on start up you have to get oil pressure back, and when you do it is all quiet again.

Its got a Cooper on it atm, but i have used Ryco. My old man just gave me half a dozen sakura filters to use as well.

Cheers

Reidy

[reida1991 Member Find all posts View Profile Close reida1991]

Reidy, there is nothing of the quality of the genuine Toyota oil filters. Fleetguard are about the closest. Anyway back to the noise. If it's coming from the low down front then it's the idler gear assembly and needs to be done pretty well straight away. It will cost you about $1,000 to $1,200 depending who does the job. If you are going to do the job yourself, around the $600 mark for the parts. This is a common problem with the 1KZ-TE as they age and the kms get higher.
Also, you should really do your injectors and glow plugs every 100,000 kms. The glow plug tips have a habit of breaking off and causing a major engine rebuild. Poor injection equals bad fuel economy and overfueling situations which are not good for diesel engines.
The Roo.

Hey Roo,

That sounds like fun, can you elaborate more on what had gone wrong if this is the cause? What is the idler gear assembly? If it helps, it sounds like a Holden Colorado on start up, really metallic and 'diesely', for want of a better term haha. It has only happened about three times in the last month or so and only for a second or two before settling to normal. I can't really tell where it's coming from, but I wouldn't have said down low, I'll have to pop the bonnet the next couple of times and see if I can ambush her into doing it.

[reida1991 Member Find all posts View Profile Close reida1991]

What oil filter is being used, as it sounds like it has one that does not have the anti drain valve in it. So all the oil drains out back into the sump and on start up you have to get oil pressure back, and when you do it is all quiet again.

Do Z334 Ryco filters have ADV?

Cheers,

Reidy

[croozza Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close croozza]

Do Z334 Ryco filters have ADV?

Cheers,

Reidy

Yes they do, but I doubt if the Cooper one does. Change the oil filter to a Ryco one and see if the rattle stops.

[reida1991 Member Find all posts View Profile Close reida1991]

Yes they do, but I doubt if the Cooper one does. Change the oil filter to a Ryco one and see if the rattle stops.

Okay, I'll do that tomorrow Crooza, thanks for your help.

Reidy

[reida1991 Member Find all posts View Profile Close reida1991]

Can anyone attest to the quality of baldwin oil filters? Also,what does everyone think about using 10w40 which was recommended by a friend in cold climates like canberra? I'm finding it very stiff in the cold mornings and it takes a while to warm up.

Cheers

Reidy

[MalcomM Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close MalcomM]

Any update?

Was it the filter or, as ########## suggests, worn engine components.
My 90 is in having the idler gear that Roo mentions serviced now.
Have a listen to this video of my engine from about 20 seconds in and see if this sounds like the same noise- http://youtu.be/ZGwVtHLvKs8
The noise is intermittent but never appears when the engines hot.

Here's another clip from a different engine (not mine) with a flogged out water pump. Similar noise but the idler is much more of a clatter - http://s691.photobucket.com/albums/v...urrent=005.mp4

If its idler, failure to deal with it risks completely stuffing the motor without any more warning.

[reida1991 Member Find all posts View Profile Close reida1991]

Any update?

Was it the filter or, as ########## suggests, worn engine components.
My 90 is in having the idler gear that Roo mentions serviced now.
Have a listen to this video of my engine from about 20 seconds in and see if this sounds like the same noise- http://youtu.be/ZGwVtHLvKs8
The noise is intermittent but never appears when the engines hot.

Here's another clip from a different engine (not mine) with a flogged out water pump. Similar noise but the idler is much more of a clatter - http://s691.photobucket.com/albums/v...view¤t=005.mp4

If its idler, failure to deal with it risks completely stuffing the motor without any more warning.

Yeah jeez Malcolm its really hard to tell if the noise is the same with the video. It hasn't happened for ages and when it did, it was only for a second and like yours, when its cold in the morning. I think that using the Penrite 15w-50 may be partly the cause, its just a bit too thick I think. I have since changed out to a Baldwin filter and mixed a bit of Nulon 15w-40 Fully Synthetic (due to a accident mainly involving a distinct loss of new oil...do'h) with the Penrite which I had left over and it seems to be running a lot smoother in the mornings.

Apart from the noise, is there any other way to diagnose it?

Reidy

[MalcomM Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close MalcomM]

Yeah jeez Malcolm its really hard to tell if the noise is the same with the video. It hasn't happened for ages and when it did, it was only for a second and like yours, when its cold in the morning. I think that using the Penrite 15w-50 may be partly the cause, its just a bit too thick I think. I have since changed out to a Baldwin filter and mixed a bit of Nulon 15w-40 Fully Synthetic (due to a accident mainly involving a distinct loss of new oil...do'h) with the Penrite which I had left over and it seems to be running a lot smoother in the mornings.

Apart from the noise, is there any other way to diagnose it?

Reidy

It would seem not.
The people I have the car with spent quite a bit of time trying to convince me it was just the timing tensioner (which was stuffed) and it was only when I went to pick it up for the weekend that they finally heard the rattle noise. They were quite surprised about how bad its sounds and straight away narrowed it down to the idler area.
So its currently being stripped down and the idler parts pulled out for checking. Also there's no parts in Oz, all these bits are ex japan 3-4 weeks delivery.

When its making the noise, you need to figure out what area its coming from. In my case its definitely front bottom and there's only a few parts it can be down there. The tensioner and water pump bearings make an entirely different noise, more squeal than clatter.

What I would do is get your phone in front of the engine and move it around to record the noise. That should find the loudest area for you.
While the engines cold, I suggest removing the fan belts which allows you to get your phone down low without chopping your arm off. It also removes any water pump bearing noise from the overall noise mix. Don't leave it this way for long as obviously there's no cooling but you should be ok for a little while.

The idler bearings are fed via an oil gallery from the main oil pump. Maybe by mucking about with your oil weights you have managed to get just enough lube into it to shut it up but if its on the way out, its going to come back and when it does it could be very expensive.
You have to consider that it should not make this noise with the Toyo filter and even oil thicker than 15w50 should not affect this. You may have just hidden the symptoms.

Like me, you are between a rock and a hard place. Its pretty expensive to fix. I'm guessing parts are going to be around $500 -600 and at least a day or two labor to deal with it plus loss of the car for a month.
I consider myself lucky that ########## identified my noise recording as idlers, of which he's changed 14 or so, and therefore knows his stuff, otherwise I would have been only too happy to have listened to the local guys telling me it was probably the tensioner.
You'll note above that Roo didn't muck about suggesting possible things to check. He jumped straight to the problem.
If the noise is down low, its idlers.

I've bitten the bullet and am having quite a few things changed at the same time simply because of the high mileage (260,000K) and the mechanics already have it all apart so I'm going to be broke for a while.
So far - injector service, timing tensioner & belt, glow plugs, cam seals (easy to get at while the belts off), maybe water pump and all other belts as well. Most of this stuff has to be removed to get to the idlers so it makes sense to change some of it as I'm already paying most of the labor cost anyway.
We want to do some extended outback touring so I figure this is money well spent as insurance and the engine should be good to go for another 200000K.
I had a compression check done when they had the plugs out and its exceptionally high so I think its worth the effort.

Anyway, hopefully your noise is something else but its not an area that you should be ignoring or hiding. A motor rebuild is bloody expensive.
If you can record the noise then post it here so we can have a listen.

cheers
Malcom