Mysterious Starting Issue

[gee Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close gee]

G'day Fellas,

I'm a newb around here and I was just wondering if anyone can shed some light on my starting issues. Over the last month or so the Prado has become very difficult to start in the morning. If the engine is dead cold ts may take a few attempts to get it started. If it is warm there are no issues whatsoever. After being left overnight I will wait until about five seconds after the glow plug light has gone out then start cranking. It starts like it has no compression. It will idle violently at around 250 rpm for around 3-4 seconds and die (if the car has been sitting for 24 + hours); or eventually kick up to the correct idle speed and idle perfectly. When it does this it virtually blows no smoke.

I have taken it to a diesel specialist and after many checks they can't find a problem.

- Glowplugs?: one wasn't reaching operating temperature so they replaced all of them and there was no improvement
- Cracked Head?: Compression test came up fine. No coolant is being lost, no bubbles etc.
- turbo?: A bit of dust was found but otherwise fine
- Injector pump?: no leaks were found it it's not being starved of fuel
- Suspect fuel?: fuel was dumped, tank cleaned and filled with clean diesel and no improvement
- Fuel filter?: replaced and no improvement
- Injectors?: mechanic seems to think if this was the problem it would run poorly all the time and blow smoke.
-Air leak in the fuel system?: he seems to think that this wouldn’t be the issue. I’ve asked them to check anyway.

The next step that they are going to take is remove the injector pump and do a full inspection. I’d like to avoid this if possible knowing this will cost $$$$. Is there something else that is being overlooked? Apart from this starting issue the prado runs perfectly. No smoke, loss of power or economy. The issue here appears to relate directly to engine temperature.

Any ideas are greatly appreciated.

Gee

[MickL Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close MickL]

Re: Mysterious Starting Issue

Hi Gee,

You say they checked the glow plugs, did they check the rest of the glow plug circuit?

Have you extracted the ECU fault codes? could very well be an engine management issue.


Mick

[gee Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close gee]

Re: Mysterious Starting Issue

They extracted the ECU fault codes and there weren't any. I'll clarify with them on Monday whether they checked the glow plug circuit. This has got me stumped and it's bloody frustrating.

[MickL Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close MickL]

Re: Mysterious Starting Issue

Could still be an engine management issue. The diagnostics is limited to short or open circuits on some sensors. Might pay to run a multimeter over the ECU coolant and air temperature sensors and check if their within spec.

Same with the Glow plug circuit, check the rail for full voltage and glow relay for operation etc.

Are you 100% sure your not using coolant? 1kz's often crack between the water jacket and intake runner - hence no bubbles or oil to be seen in coolant.

Mick

[gee Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close gee]

Re: Mysterious Starting Issue

I've never had to top up the coolant and I've never had an overheating issue and it hasn't towed anything for over 7 years. I going to take it on a 800k run next weekend so I'll be sure to monitor the coolant levels very closely.

[dhula Member Find all posts View Profile Close dhula]

Re: Mysterious Starting Issue

how many kms on the car,
has it had the injectors done yet
what colour smoke (if any) is coming out the exhaust when it runs like crap
is there any water in the fuel (what about the servo you use)

Prado deso's can crack heads and not show any signs apart from poor running. the crack can be very difficult to diagnose until the head is pulled off and even then it can be hard to find.

From what you describe it sounds to me to be injector or FIP probs,
consider having the injectors pulled and recoed, get a report on spay pattern, cracking pressure and dribble before the reco is done tho. make sure you get the same report on the new injectors before they are fitted.
if doing an injector change get the same report before the new ones go in and don't believe the "they are new so she'll be right" line as i've seen many so called recoed, exchange injectors fail these tests.

[gee Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close gee]

Re: Mysterious Starting Issue

The engines done 196 000 ks. I don't think the injectors have ever been out. It blows very little smoke when it is running like crud- if there is any smoke its white. I found a post on another forum about another prado with almost identical symptoms as mine. In the end it was a crack in the water trap sensor at the bottom of the fuel filter allowing the fuel to drain away when left to sit overnight or longer. My water trap sensor is looking a bit worst for wear but doesn't appear to be leaking. I called the mechanic and told him this and he is going to bypass everything back from the injector pump and see if it starts correctly. He said he will also try a bit of clear hose to see if he can find any air bubbles in the fuel. Although, he's still not convinced it's an air leak as he says the pump is full of fuel. If its only the sensor I'll be jumping for joy. Will find out on Monday and report back.

[dhula Member Find all posts View Profile Close dhula]

Re: Mysterious Starting Issue

white smoke can be the indication of
*raw fuel - can be caused by cyl temps not being high enough (glow plugs) or too much fuel in the combustion chamber at start up (injectors not shutting properly/completely or dribbling injectors)
*water in the fuel - can be caused by condensation in the tank (can happen when tanks are left low overnight in hot climates) or water getting into underground tanks at the servo during wet season or after huge downpours

[gee Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close gee]

Re: Mysterious Starting Issue

Well today they checked for air leak and found no problems. They then decided to try the injector pump off an electronically injected 5L hilux just to see if there was any improvement (they didn't have one for the 1kzte). The start up was a lot better even though the timing was incorrect using the different pump. They then decide to inspect the internals and found major wear and a section of the pump where diesel was bypassing causing metal on metal friction. Tomorrow they are going to jimmy up a temporary fix for the blocked section of the pump and refit the pump to confirmed that it's the problem. If so, I'll be getting the pump fully reconditoned or replaced with a new pump (depending on price) and the injectors reconditioned- goodbye tax return :cry: . I'm looking on the positive side of things though. Pumps and injectors do suffer from wear and tear and my prado is no spring chicken being 10 years old and with 200,000 Ks. This is the first time both items will be touched. I'd rather get the work done now while I've got the money, rather than being 2000 kilometres from home and suffering a major failure and being stuck especially wit the wife and two kids under 3. Who knows, after both are done I may gain a kilowatt or two and be able to smoke the next bus I see at a set of traffic lights. :mrgreen:

[StormyKnight Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close StormyKnight]

Re: Mysterious Starting Issue

.... be able to smoke the next bus I see at a set of traffic lights. :mrgreen:

Perhaps if its a slow bus

Yes please keep us informed as to what you find out.....my Prado's 9 years & 200,000km.....

How long have you had your car & what sort of driving do you normally do with it (city/rural)

Cheers

[gee Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close gee]

Re: Mysterious Starting Issue

Well everything is now sorted. New filter, glow plugs, injectors and a brand new injector pump later and it is starting perfectly. Despite spending a small fortune I'm actually pretty happy because the difference in power and torque is amazing. I drove to Brisbane and back today (800 ks) and had to adjust my driving style because of the improvement. I don't know if anyone knows the section of the Bruce Hwy heading up to Cooroy but it is a long section of climbing. Prior to getting the work done I'd have to drop back to 4th and floor it to try and maintain 100 kph. Today I left it in fifth and going up this stretch I reached about 115 before backing off. I no longer have to ride the clutch on take off and overtaking didn't have to involve a clear view to the horizon. I obviously haven't gained any power or torque over a standard 1kzte but mine must have really lost a lot of power due to the tired pump and 200000k old injectors. The funny thing is I was planning on spending money on a full exhaust and maybe even a chip to overcome the lack of power before it started playing up. I glad I didn't as I probably wouldn't have gained much and would still have been up for a new pump in the not too distant future.

By the way, the diesel mechanic showed me the problem in the old pump but still wasn't sure of the cause or why it only caused problems when cold. It was the first time he had seen such a problem. The mechanic did a great job and only charged me one lot of labour for the fitting of the new pump despite the fact he removed the original, fitted a hilux pump, removed it, inspected the original, made a temporary fix to the original, refitted it, removed it and then fitted the new pump and stayed back after 5 on Friday to ensure I had it for today. His persistence paid off in the end. If any one around Bundaberg needs work done to their diesel see Glen at Diesel Injection Technology Bundaberg- I can't recommend him enough.

[wir_aus Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close wir_aus]

Re: Mysterious Starting Issue

Hi there - in know you said a small fortune but what is a small fortune these days?

thanks
Brett

[Derb Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Derb]

Re: Mysterious Starting Issue

Hi Gee. 10 years and 200,000 ain't a lot of work to a 1KZ in the whole scheme of things. Chances are it may have had a good slurp of grubby or sub-standard diesel some time in it's past, or infrequent fuel filter changes. Good luck with your fresh engine. Cheers.

[gee Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close gee]

Re: Mysterious Starting Issue

Small fortune = about $3500 all up. Brand new injector pump $2700, injectors $400, glowplugs $120 and the rest labour. The diesel mechanic actually went easy on me for labour considering they had to hire the toyota diagnosis computer, compression check, remove the pump, put one on from a 5L hilux, removed that, pulled my pump apart, make a temporary repair, refit it again, removed it again and then fitted the new pump. They had the vehicle over a week and were very thorough and kept me informed the whole time.

It's been running perfectly since, except today it had a hiccup (how ironic) :roll: . I was on my way home (5 minute trip) when I could smell a strong burning rubber smell coming through the vents just after I turned the air con on. I stopped at a set of lights and then went to take off and the engine check light came on and the car basically went into limp mode (very little power- just enough to roll off from the lights). I pulled over, popped the bonnet with the car running and could still smell burning rubber (at this stage the engine check light was still on). I shut it down and checked under the bonnet. Everything seemed normal. I started it up again, engine light stayed off but the smell lingered. I got home no problems except the smell. I went and had dinner and decided to take it for a run to see if it happens again. Thinking it's an air con issue I drove with it off for about 20 minutes. No problems, no smell. Turned around and drove back, this time with the air con going and again, no problems, no smell. Very strange- hopefully it was a one off.