New to PP requesting advice for driving in snow conditions

[BostonKaos . Find all posts View Profile Close BostonKaos]

Good morning,

a buddy of mine recomended this site to me a short while ago and I must say I have taken in alot of knowledge from going through various threads and am very impressed with the community you all have created from beginners to rock climbing beasts. I recently acquired a 2002 TD GXL as i'm getting a little older now (31) my driving style has slowed down and my passion for ground shaking glass shattering V8 chev stepsides has died (Got one for sale if anyone wants one ;-)

On a serious note I did want to ask if anyone has some advice for driving in snow/ice conditions i'm relative new to the south and am keen to explore the snow fields. I am also new to the 4wd world so please excuse my ignorance if i'm asking some pretty basic questions. I'm gathering snow chains would be obvious if called upon but what about tyres? I have pretty standard dunlop highway tyres would it be worth picking up a second set of rims and specific off road tyres for these conditions including camping trips? Also with driving in snowing conditions were i'm gathering the road may get a little slippery what 4wd gear would be recommended.

Cheers in advance

-Boston

[glen_ep Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close glen_ep]

Well my experience with snow is pretty limited, but I'll do what I can. I'd be great to hear from people in the northern hemisphere as they'd have significantly more experience than anyone in Aus!

Ice is extremely slippery but different to mud. In mud the difference between traction and no traction is blurred - you usually have some form of control and can change directions. However with ice, the difference is very sharp, you'll suddenly go from good traction to ZERO traction. Once you've lost traction in ice it's not usually possible to get it back - the side of the road is what stops you. At least, this is what I've found with MT tyres.

There are such things as snow/ice tyres for cars. When I visited Japan earlier this year for some skiing I noticed that all the cars/4wds were driving around the snow and ice covered roads quite normally, WITHOUT CHAINS. It was amazing to see that despite the conditions, the vehicles were all in very good condition, straight & undamaged. Their tyres all looked the same, a cross between HT and AT, and no doubt they were snow/ice tyres with a very soft compound. Unfortunately that won't suit most people here as we'd wear them out too quickly.

Snow chains are required to be at least carried in the vehicle in Australia's alpine regions during winter. I haven't used them but clearly they provide substantial grip on ice and can do wonders in mud as well (whilst severely damaging the track ).

Deep snow, I have no experience... I've read that we aim to stay on top of it (compress it), not push through it. Note however, that under snow is usually soaking ground just waiting to be turned into mud - so if off road snow is the aim, MT's or aggressive AT's would be the go.

My advice is soft compound AT tyres and chains for main roads and major camping areas. If you're going further off road onto 4wd tracks, then soft compound AT's or MT's, chains, a suspension lift (to clear deeper snow) and a winch + recovery kit. That's it. For snow/ice, don't waste money on traction aids like lockers and maxtrax. The chains and winch are your essential items. BTW - most high altitude off road destinations are gated/closed during winter.

Don't forget vehicle maintenance as well. Weak/old batteries will easily fail in cold conditions leaving you without winch and stranded. Wiper fluid will freeze up. Use low viscosity oils so they'll lubricate from the moment the car is started. And safety... always carry enough supplies in the vehicle to keep you alive and warm over several nights as it's very easy to become stranded and isolated.

[MidLifeCrisis Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close MidLifeCrisis]

Based upon my experience over many many years and the fact I have NEVER seen snow I suggest you drive carefully........

My business partner has a house in Japan and does a bit of snow driving so I quizzed him. Unfortunately his advice was similar to mine....

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

... And safety... always carry enough supplies in the vehicle to keep you alive and warm over several nights as it's very easy to become stranded and isolated.

I cannot contribute anything to the thread other than this, a mate in Canada carries with him a tin of about 2L capacity with a lid in the back of his car. Inside is a space blanket or two, 2kg or so of peanuts, mineral tablets and matches. As well as the usual torch and batteries. The idea is that you can survive on the peanuts and melted snow (with tablets added) until the Mounties come and get you. Just like the outback stay with the car.

[r4ndll Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close r4ndll]

My experience is with two wheel drives in th snow in the UK. Basically speed and momentum is your enemy especially bitumen roads. Stopping distances are longer and loss of traction comes much earlier. You won't see any ice under snow either. Similar rules apply for ice and snow, but ice is just more scary

You need higher gears at lower speeds/engine revs, basically to reduce chances of wheel spin. Start in second gear where you would normally start in first for the same reason. It's why us auto drivers have a 2nd start button . It locks the box out of first gear when pulling away

I am not sure how well VSC works in snow but I would presume leaving it on if you have it is a good idea as it cuts revs when you lose traction. I only ever had it on one car and never driven that in snow

I have seen snow tires in the US with little studs on them. Not sure if they're legal here

Another thing to think about is your diesel. It gets waxy at low temps and can cause issues . So you need alpine diesel blend to prevent this. Try and arrive at the alpine areas with a low tank and fill up with the alpine deisel when you are there. And consider antifreeze additive for your cooling system.

[Ozpat Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Ozpat]

Also lower tyre pressures are essential as in driving in mud. Drop them to 26psi for the ice and keep your speed down. 20 or lower in the snow. Don't forget the compressor.

Cheers Jim.

[Guest Close Guest]

This is my contribution
http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...ow-bound-Prado

[Chris220220 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris220220]

Used to do a reasonable amount of snow driving in the past, mainly in a Lada Niva with the Russian snow tyres up past Licola.
(they even had holes for snow spikes but never tried that)
What I have found and suggest.(for what it's worth)
Go easy and don't make any sudden changes to speed or direction. As said you feel in control then bang your sliding happens in snow and worse on ice.
Wierd sensation, you start to turn and push the wheel around till there is a nothing happeneing sesation then you try straighten up and wait to grip again. If you forget to straighten the car regrips and you going at right angles pretty quick and then sliding even worse.

Chains (diamonds are easier to fit than ladders and give more stearing control)are the best thing you can use and will go on any tyre. Don't go fast with chains!!! If an end comes loose the gaurds, shockers and body will soon get whipped to death if going at any speed.
On bitumen roads at snow level they are often cleared around resorts and no big issue. If in snow storms or out of resort areas take it easy with lights on. We were out one time on Hotham with someone walking out front to show us where the road was, it was that thick and heavy.
Snow driving is great fun, chunky tyres give the most grip, but only for so long if your pushing it.

I'd take a pair of washup gloves, a tarp and cable ties. Put the tarp down, so you dont get wet fitting chains, gloves to keep the frozen snow from freezing your fingers and cable ties to secure the ends of the chains.

[Chris220220 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris220220]

Yes that is the other one make sure your running with at least 50% Alpine diesel. We had a hire diesel we took up Fall Creek for work. Ended up staying the night and RACV had to be called to bleed the injectors to get the waxy diesel out. In cold areas they use electric blankets over the engine to stop them getting too cold over night, not that bad here, just watch the fuel mix.

[fridayman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close fridayman]

You can get quite far with an aggresive AT tyre. The BFG's and General Grabber AT's work very well on snow and are OK on ice (as good as anything that doesn't have spikes). To stop diesel waxing you can add a bit of petrol, but I never did and never had a problem. Dirty windscreens and frozen washer fluid can be a pain - lots of washer fluids have winter ratings so just choose the right one, or add a few ml of isopropyl alcohol to your current washer fluid.
If you do lose traction, or are looking for traction, fresh snow actually has a fair bit of traction so avoid dark or translucent patches and drive over fluffy white patches. If you go into a slow slide and there are large snow banks, they can be used to slow you down with minimal damage to the vehicle, but there is always the risk that something is hidden in the snow... you'll have to determine the risk for each situation.
Lastly, carry a bag of kitty litter in case you hit some serious ice. You can grit small patches with the litter to gain some traction.

[Chris220220 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chris220220]

Overnight put your winscreen wipers up off the screen or you'll rip them off when you try use them in morning if frozen.
Be carefull digging your car out, shovels and panels don't mix.
If on a ski mountain that gets cleared don't go on the end of the line or leave your car sticking out from the row.
Snow ploughs stop for nothing, and it is park at drivers own risk!!
Good long gloves and warm windproof gear if your going to be outside for any time.
Forget butane gas stoves they barely work in the snow.

[Serg_49 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Serg_49]

Hey mates. I have a very big snow driving experience )) I would say almost a half of my driving experience is snow driving. We do have snow on the roads 4-5 months a year. But it is very hard to collect all knowledge to a few sentences. Way too many different things.

First of all I would say that it is really important to have good, insulated boots and gloves. If your body is cold you can just fall sick. It is not the most dangerous thing, but you can frostbite your hands, feet of face. It is much worse. I did have a frostbites a couple times. The most dangerous thing about it is that you do not feel it. You feel cold for a little while but a bit later you feel like you are ok. But it could be that your hands or feet just simply so cold that you do not feel it. The other thing is that usually you spend a lot of time outside of the car then you stuck. And you are full of energy, full of adrenalin and do not think about your own safety. But is very, very important. Belive me.

Another one is diesel fuel. I do not know how it works in your country, but in Russia we do have 3 types of Diesel fuel. Summer fuel, Winter fuel and Arctic fuel. Summer fuel will stop your engine at -5C, Winter at -30C, Arctic is good for temperatures -50C. The issue is wax. It will plug up your fuel filter. No fuel - no work. But in most cases you can run your diesel with a summer fuel for a long time if temperatures are not too low. It is because the hot fuel from return line keeps your remaining diesel warm in the tank. But is soon as you stop your engine, you will not be able to restart it. On Japanese cars fuel filters are also wormed up by warm fuel from return line. It is called "winter" package. Also you can run your diesel engine with summer fuel if you add kerosene to it. 80-90% of Diesel and 10-20% of Kerosine. It is ok for temperatures down to -20-30C. Adding gasoline is the last thing you want to do. But if you do not have winter diesel, kerosene, but you need to go, you can add gasoline. But do not forget to remove this fuel from the tank as soon as possible.

Talking about tires. For winter driving I prefer winter tires. For instance I like and use Bridgestone Blizzak DM-Z3. You can see this tire fit on my Prado in my thread "Just a couple photos from Russia". It is very soft tire. Very good for driving on the snow but it will "melt" on the hot Australian highways ))) But for winter driving it is one of the best tires. But in general the softer the tire, the better it is for snow driving. MT tires like BFG KM2 is more or less ok for packed snow, but for ice and slippery packed snow it the last thing you want to use. But if you put on the chains, it will be ok.

About wideness of the tire. It depends on the type of snow. If it is a packed, slippery snow, then you would better to use narrow tire. If is is a deep snow, then you would better to use wide deflated to about 10 PSI. If you drive carefully this pressure will be ok. I did drive at this pressure on snow 2 meters deep. But that was not soft snow, that was a packed snow.

Should you have a soft snow it does not really matter what tire do you use(in terms of wideness), at soft snow the most important thing is momentum. You move until you move. If you stopped, back up and you need to find the way to gain speed and momentum. Heavy trucks drives way much better at soft snow.

At the packed snow use deflated tires, low gear, do not allow any kind of wheel spinning. Meter by meter make your own tracks, very slowly, forward-backward, forward-backward, and absolutely NO wheel spinning. Af you allow your whell spin, you will have on of two. You either will dig into the snow(buy the way, pulling the car our of the packed snow is the most difficult task for your winch!), or your tire after it makes a few revolutions, will create a tiny layer of water between the snow and thread. And that is it. You stuck. You will spin your tires, but you will not move at all(it is if use the bare MT tire).

At the slippery, icy road or road with a packed slick snow drive slowly and very carefully. Remember, it is very easy to lose traction, and almost impossible to get it back until you completely stopped(luckily on the road, not a ditch). Do everything very slowly, no sharp turnings, strong accelerations and so on. Use your engine and transmission to slow down your movement if driving downhill. For example if it is automatic transmission switch you shifter from D to 2 then 1 helping the brakes, it will help to not lose traction.

The most dangerous surface is ice covered with lay of wet snow with water. You will get aquaplaning on very low speed. I did get it at speed of 40km/h. Ended in the ditch. Spent more then 10k$ for repair.

[Serg_49 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Serg_49]

Also if you have a snorkel and need to drive at snowstorm, put the women nylon stockings on the air intake.

You can see it on mine Prado on the first photo in this post: http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...l=1#post465381

[Serg_49 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Serg_49]

By the way. It would be a very smart idea to have a box with sand in the car if you are going in the snow areas. It will help you should you stuck on slippery surface. And I think you will not have a problem finding the sand there in Australia )))

[Serg_49 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Serg_49]

It is interesting. You are looking for a snow off road, and I am dreaming about the places like your Fraser Island. For me it is like a paradise for people, especially for offroad people. Should I decide to visit Australia that is the place I would love to visit ))) Seems like I watched every single video on YouTube about trips to that Island ))))