Would you pull me out?

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Interesting those procedures you posted Trekky, are they really what they currently teach? Point six was outdated years ago! Testing has been done and we show the video of the testing during our club training sessions that shows are dampness are next to useless. The fact they say wet might help a bit, assuming you have water to spare.

In the demo they used ARB recovery blankets (as I do) - these weigh 1.5kg before you do anything but they have a pocket that you can place spare shackles or rocks in to increase the weight.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

So what's the point of this thread then???

#### wants to reinvent the wheel, no point to this thread as far as I can tell, just going over the same old stuff that's has been discussed a thousand times before.

Cheers Andrew

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

In the demo they used ARB recovery blankets (as I do) - these weigh 1.5kg before you do anything but they have a pocket that you can place spare shackles or rocks in to increase the weight.

I have done that as well, the point is the weight is what slows it down not the air it catches. I also carry bags that I could put sand in and tie those on, 5kg will do but more doesn't hurt, it of course needs to be correctly secured.

Cheers Andrew

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

So ####, the fact that you use the towbar at the rear proves you are confident in the use of 8.8 bolts, in fact only six as opposed to eight, so I can't see your issue with bolt on points. For the record I don't consider 8.8 bolts to be crappy. Don't worry about upgrading your towbar bolts as the nuts inside the chassis will still be the lower grade

I always recommend the use of a bridle, at both ends which will give a centre pull. Silly if you don't unless its a gentle pull as opposed to a full snatch.

Interesting those procedures you posted Trekky, are they really what they currently teach? Point six was outdated years ago! Testing has been done and we show the video of the testing during our club training sessions that shows are dampness are next to useless. The fact they say wet might help a bit, assuming you have water to spare.

We teach people to attach dampners at 1/3 and 2/3 on the snatch strap, the dampners need to be heavy! We use 5kg of chain for each dampner tied to the snatch strap using a Prusik knot! You don't believe me do you

If you are brave enough test the theory for yourself, attach the snatch strap to the rear of your Prado as you would for a recovery, then place a jacket, or a towel, or a hessian bag or whatever you would normally use for a dampner in your usual position, then attach a shackle to the other end and with the strap at full extension throw the shackle (attached to the strap) as hard as you can at the rear window of your pride and joy. Now your throwing will be no where near as powerful as what would happen during a snatch recovery so your pride and joy should be safe......... Shouldn't it? Make sure your insurance is up to date before attempting that experiment.

Then try tying a 5kg weight at 2/3 and try again throwing the shackle, you are superman if it makes a mark on your pride and joy!

That should get some arguments going

Cheers Andrew

The 120 points I have seen, only have 2 bolts each side. Not huge either.
I'm confident with 6 that I have not measure but are bigger.
That's why I'm eager to see yours.
Later I can tell you about my personal experiences with 8.8 10mm dia bolts that hold Arb bullbars on.

What was posted, snatching, That's pretty much standard procedure on any literature etc.
If its a real snatch, a blanket or wet blanket something heavy is recommended by some people.
I would never have thought of adding a Chain to the mix, in fear of it adding to the bullets citation.
Well, maybe the rear hitch got ripped off, as it is then its own dampner as its over 5kg.
Well that's that sorted.

I've always thought if I ever had a wire rope winch, I'd want a dampener at each end or 3 for that matter. These thoughts have extended to straps & dyneema rope as well.
I don't get much practise, I don't get stuck by accident, & don't go out winching.
However I'm ok at calculating risk. Well I think so

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

#### wants to reinvent the wheel, no point to this thread as far as I can tell, just going over the same old stuff that's has been discussed a thousand times before.

Cheers Andrew

I answered the point of this thread earlier.

What's the point of any thread?
It's a forum, the thread has been very popular, thousands of views, lots of posts & info, comments of it being very interesting.

Stop going it over again then? I have not gone over it b4, I have learnt things I'm sure hundreds of others have & will.

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

How do you reckon a dampner would go here: http://youtu.be/RdgdQ4PBC6o

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Sorry ####, yes you are correct, 2 bolts per side so four bolts using a bridle as opposed to six on the tow hitch.
FYI the bolts that hold on the towbar are the same size and grade (or lower) than those used on all the commonly available recovery points.

Jasen, sorry if I come across as angry, that's not what I intend.

A snatch recovery is arguably the most dangerous thing we can do while out wheelin, so with that in mind how many of the people that have added to this thread have had recent professional training in technique and requirements for recovery points? How many are familiar with industry standards for recovery points?

I challenge anyone to find any reputable organization who would put in writing that the welded on loops would be suitable. The truth is no one will for the reasons I have explained. On the other hand if you read the guidelines in the training manuals provided by 4WD Australia the bolt on recovery points meet those guidelines. Those guidelines didn't come from no where and are based on industry best practice, surely as a forum given the dangers of snatch recovery we should encourage industry best practice.

The thing that probably has got me upset in this thread is the comments suggesting we should do anything we can to save a person stranded, to the point of putting people's lives in danger to save a vehicle because that is the Australian thing to do!

If you are going to partake in activities that could require dangerous procedures to be used then go and get trained, understand the techniques and the recommendations, and follow them.

Forums are great for learning lots of things, but this topic isn't one you should learn from a forum that has plenty of bad information mixed in with the good.

Cheers Andrew

[mackayvx Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close mackayvx]

#### wants to reinvent the wheel, no point to this thread as far as I can tell, just going over the same old stuff that's has been discussed a thousand times before.

Yes and he is being a right prickle about it...
A real peoples 'leader'.

[Dupes68 Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dupes68]

A snatch recovery is arguably the most dangerous thing we can do while out wheelin, so with that in mind how many of the people that have added to this thread have had recent professional training in technique and requirements for recovery points? How many are familiar with industry standards for recovery points?

I challenge anyone to find any reputable organization who would put in writing that the welded on loops would be suitable. The truth is no one will for the reasons I have explained. On the other hand if you read the guidelines in the training manuals provided by 4WD Australia the bolt on recovery points meet those guidelines. Those guidelines didn't come from no where and are based on industry best practice, surely as a forum given the dangers of snatch recovery we should encourage industry best practice.

The thing that probably has got me upset in this thread is the comments suggesting we should do anything we can to save a person stranded, to the point of putting people's lives in danger to save a vehicle because that is the Australian thing to do!

If you are going to partake in activities that could require dangerous procedures to be used then go and get trained, understand the techniques and the recommendations, and follow them.

Forums are great for learning lots of things, but this topic isn't one you should learn from a forum that has plenty of bad information mixed in with the good.

Cheers Andrew[/QUOTE]

Well said! Common sense and sound training in recovery techniques (and awareness of the risks) is what is required, in my humble opinion. I am not an engineer but I am a 4wder, with experience and accredited training.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

Yes and he is being a right prickle about it...
A real peoples 'leader'.

Really? Now who sounds angry.

OK THE END!

I know it's hard to resist, but a few people can't handle discussion. So lets leave it now can we.
Thankx for all the posts.

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

Sorry ####, yes you are correct, 2 bolts per side so four bolts using a bridle as opposed to six on the tow hitch.
FYI the bolts that hold on the towbar are the same size and grade (or lower) than those used on all the commonly available recovery points.

Jasen, sorry if I come across as angry, that's not what I intend.

A snatch recovery is arguably the most dangerous thing we can do while out wheelin, so with that in mind how many of the people that have added to this thread have had recent professional training in technique and requirements for recovery points? How many are familiar with industry standards for recovery points?

I challenge anyone to find any reputable organization who would put in writing that the welded on loops would be suitable. The truth is no one will for the reasons I have explained. On the other hand if you read the guidelines in the training manuals provided by 4WD Australia the bolt on recovery points meet those guidelines. Those guidelines didn't come from no where and are based on industry best practice, surely as a forum given the dangers of snatch recovery we should encourage industry best practice.

The thing that probably has got me upset in this thread is the comments suggesting we should do anything we can to save a person stranded, to the point of putting people's lives in danger to save a vehicle because that is the Australian thing to do!

If you are going to partake in activities that could require dangerous procedures to be used then go and get trained, understand the techniques and the recommendations, and follow them.

Forums are great for learning lots of things, but this topic isn't one you should learn from a forum that has plenty of bad information mixed in with the good.

Cheers Andrew

Andrew and ####, I am just interested in the best solution and I am interested in the engineering part of this debate.

The thing that bothers me and that no-one has been able to answer is where is the engineering design to support the bolt on recovery points?

For them to be rated it is not enough just to use a pair of plates stamped with an SWL and some HT bolts, thats only half of the solution To be a rated design the following would need to be considered

1. Design of the attachment points - are the bolt holes used for attaching the plates designed for the purpose or are they just convenient bolt holes.
2. Has the moment placed on he bolts by the long plates been considered in the recovery point design. Because the recovery point attachment is quite a long way from the bolts it will generate a moment, it may even pivot on one bolt putting the other into shear. I investigated a bolt failure like this for work last week.
3. Has the surface condition of the joint been considered in the design. Is there a good mating surface between the plate and the chassis surface at he mounting point.

My whole point is that the pates are only half the answer and if how they bolt on and what they bolt onto hasn't been engineered then it isn't really any safer than the other options. In fact the moment generated by the recovery points may cause other problems.

I am also not saying that the welded hoops are any better.

In the absence of any engineering design we are left with real world experience. Has any one seen a welded hoop or recovery plate fail.

Without supporting facts this is all just speculation or opinions, and that is okay but let's not pretend that it is factual.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

I think that video states it all about using the welded hoops as recovery points.

I'm not sure I understand the point you are making here John.

First off - looking at the video I would never have tried snatching a vehicle from that position anyway.

You can't see what recovery points were used and to me it looks like it was the strap that broke anyway not the recovery point. I recently witnessed a similar situation - nothing to do with me or the group I was in but there was no way they were going to snatch out and they broke at least three snatch straps trying as far as I know.

[ntp Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close ntp]

Maybe the point of this thread could be to get people to commit to getting some training. Maybe PP could help set some training up or point people in the right direction, like I said my training was years ago and I wouldn't mind a formal brush up.

Nothing stopping you from doing this yourself?The PP GTG are an excellent way of brushing up on your skills and learning from other (gurus).

For those that might be getting angry or have a different views to others, don't forget these threads:

The Great Dummy Spit thread - PradoPoint

The Different Perspectives thread - PradoPoint

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Here is the Snatch Recovery carried out on a training course I attended. Note the use of two Recovery Dampers and a bridle as discussed. Also note that this was before I fitted the bull bar.

But, here is the interesting part - on the training course were a Triton, a Pathfinder, a Patrol, a Landrover Defender (with ARB Bar) and my Prado. My car was selected to be the bogged vehicle by the instructors as (after inspection of all vehicles) it was the only one they considered had recovery points. This did annoy the guy with the Defender as he thought the ARB bar had recovery points - the instructors said no, they are tow points.

[macaroon1 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close macaroon1]

x2 . I've the outback ideas recovery points on the same set up. I'd gladly recover someone with those, just not sure about the OEM tie down hooks unless equalizer straps were involved!

You mean factory tow hooks?

Mate, call them what you like but I meant what I said?!! I went on a similar course to treckrider and all the instructors called them tie down points, designed for transportation in shipping and for flat bed transporters. If they were to be used they insisted a bridle be used (equalizer strap) but really they did recommend aftermarket one's....even though they are not rated!! To me they just look more up to the job than some welded hoop that some robot has tacked on! Many thx.