Would you pull me out?

[Nigel M Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Nigel M]

I have a 2003 120 series Prado.
It was pointed out at the 2014 gtg committee meeting today that 10mm of weld = 1+ tonne.
32 tonnes of strength in the welds.
This is massively stronger than a 8- 10 tonne snatch strap.

I believe I Have he best recovery/tow points available

Would you or would you not pull me out?

Going back to the first post...
Is the intention behind this question about owners without after market recovery points or bull bars with recovery points and if they should be allowed on trips at the 2014 gtg?

There is a level of responsibility and accountability taken by the recoverer, so if the recoverer it not 100% happy with the situation then they should not be judged for refusing. What I read from this is that different people are willing to take varying degrees of risk.

My thoughts, Nigel.

[Dupes68 Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dupes68]

Wow, Sounds like I missed the best part of the Committee Meeting.... The footy was good though..!!!!

[butane8 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close butane8]

rule of thumb- welding

How large is your weld? Was it welded horrizontaly, vertically, up or down? Rule of thumb is 25mm of 6mm fillet weld will hold one tonne, but that assumes a lot of other factors are correct.

A grade 8.8 bolt meets a standard, that standard is consistent so you know you are dealing with a known quantity.

Really what the person bogged thinks is safe is irrelevant, it's what the recoverer who is not bogged thinks that matters.

Cheers Andrew

I too am a very confident welder and that is correct " a inch-is good for a ton "

but the key advise is there too. who welded it was is done correctly, for lifting applications, there is another part of the checking of the weld
, NON DESTRUCTIVE TESTING , so if you were to hook your rig up to another vehicle, id assume you take responsibility, that you can do it
safely, if you have doubt, provide assistance or shovel , beer or elbow grease... but if some one took a negative approach to me while i was
assessing the situation .. i would probably say no to a recovery first, to see what there attitude was towards the respect of my own vehicle,
make suggestions , think outside the box.. that way while your doing this , would give you time to look further into the aspect of the vehicle
recovery set up etc, assess loading, weights , points , etc... basically understanding the situation...

I would stop and provide assistance to any person ... in all cases as one day it could be me.... cheers butane

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

Going back to the first post...
Is the intention behind this question about owners without after market recovery points or bull bars with recovery points and if they should be allowed on trips at the 2014 gtg?

There is a level of responsibility and accountability taken by the recoverer, so if the recoverer it not 100% happy with the situation then they should not be judged for refusing. What I read from this is that different people are willing to take varying degrees of risk.

My thoughts, Nigel.

The point is there is very opposite opinions on this.
That's all it is, opinions.
Its Because none of the points have been tested as they are mounted on a vehicle.
Until they are all tested to their limit, mounted as described, we won't know.
So we have to use our our brain to work out what is safe.
I have seen a Bullbar get ripped off, so that's a fact about how crap bolts can be.
Have a look on you tube, you should find some.
It is to put some facts about these recovery points, once again 14mm thick steel & quality welds.
I cannot understand anyone that thinks that is no good, the feedback I have received generally says that makes sense.

Absolutely if the recoverer is not happy, then that's fine because that's their judgement.
There are 99% of other people who understand there is a huge strength involved in 14mm welded steel.
They can figure out, a snatch strap will likely break first. They are ready to help out with a gentle snatch.
I thinks the odds are, more likely to have a dodgy Chinese bolt than a dodgy Japanese Toyota chassis weld.
Also it all connected to the same welded chassis. Like these bolts if they are super duper, they only bolt up to a welded chassis lol..........

Yes manufacturers won't rate these points, so they always cover them selves.
Just like they say, wading in TOYOTAS water must not be deeper than the bottom of the front plastic bumper bar.
So are we going to be safe & not be idiots & take risks by driving 800mm? Because TOYOTAS recommendation is about 300mm.

So are the majority of us that silly & dangerous?
Or are we smart & understand there is a large strength involved.
Just like we understand we can go much deeper than the bottom of the front bar.

I believe we should not follow the minimum recovery requirements set at the s.a 2012 gtg.
I was thinking we would come up with the MINIMUM safe requirements, based on facts & to suit the conditions that we will be in.

Aside from any gtg, generally:

A. I wanted to know who is coming on trips with me.
B. I needed to know who's trips I can go on or who I have to ask before attending.
C. It might help the 2014 gtg committee to decide finally what those requirements really are.

Nobody should take a risk they don't want to, they should speak up about their concerns right away.
Safety first.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

I would pull you out, anytime darling.
The Roo.

Another very highly experienced senior TOYOTA vehicle techs OPINION.
Yep that's all we have, a Brain & an opinion.

By the way, you won't have to, I'm always leading & don't get stuck by accident.
Thankx.

[blkd4d Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close blkd4d]

This thread is never going to end .

Anthony you will not always be first .

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

Great discussion and as a mechanical engineer I agree with ####. And no I don't have one of those nice coats.

You can be pretty sure that the SWL on the rated recovery points is only for the plates and bolts. I doubt very much that the companies producing the recovery points have got hold of the Toyota chassis design drawings and analysed the strength of the mounting points on the chassis. Even more unlikely and difficult to get under there and measure everything to do the calculations.

HT bolts can fail if used incorrectly, I've got photos to prove it. If you are going to bolt a plate to the chassis and say that it is rated, then you must use a tension wrench to ensure that the bolts are correctly tightened. If the stamped plates and bolts don't come with a tightening specification then they aren't rated.

The quality of all the welds is critical and I have seen some fairly ordinary ones along with some good ones on the chassis. Even if you bolt on your stamped plates you should still inspect the chassis to make sure everything looks ok, no cracks etc.

As for blindly assuming that rules will keep you safe, that's plain stupid. You still need to check things for yourself and make a judgement. My two cents worth.

[mackayvx Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close mackayvx]

I don't have the Prado with me as a reference but I do remember looking into this subject with a lot of depth when I chose to fit Outback ideas recov points.
From memory, those welded tie down points (on the early 120s) are welded to a cover plate which encloses the bottom of the radiator support panel.
I'd like to double check but I'm 99℅ sure that the tubular fabrication which the tie down points are welded to isn't actually a solid tube on the lowest point or 'bottom face'.
If my memory is correct, I diagnosed the weak point for snatching of those lugs wasnt the welds or the lugs, but the panel the lugs are welded to which is stitched onto that lowest 'tube' to enclose the bottom face of that 'tube'
I personally decided that there would be more strength in fabricating in a solid top threaded bush so I could bolt up my Outback points with out crushing the 'side tube' of the radiator support panel.
This by default also avoids snatching of that 'bottom tube cover panel'.

And no ####, I wouldn't snatch you out...

I'd sit back, crack a beer and watch all of your crew trip over each other in excitement that they are snatching their 'leader' out!

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Just like they say, wading in TOYOTAS water must not be deeper than the bottom of the front plastic bumper bar.
So are we going to be safe & not be idiots & take risks by driving 800mm? Because TOYOTAS recommendation is about 300mm.

Actually Toyota quotes the Prado both in the manual and in its brochures as having a wading depth of 700mm but don't let the facts get in the way.

No manufacturer is going to guarantee or warrant anything outside its comfort zone because that then means they are liable for a whole lot more pain when someone does something that results in damage or Gods forbid injury.

As I said earlier the biggest problem with the tie down points is that they are not directly in line with the chassis but are connected to a section that itself is welded to the chassis. This creates a moment load on that joint. Despite Toyota and pretty much everyone these days having quality control it depends what the weld is designed for. If their specification is for one or two tonnes of static load tying down a car for transport on a ship that is all you can be 100% sure it will be good for. And these are used to hold the cars in place during transport.



Without getting too detailed you can see that even if the load is applied parallel to the ground there is a moment initiated which will try to bend the points up or break the lower structure off. Even if yours hasn't bent that doesn't mean the loading isn't there it just means it hasn't reached a point where plastic deformation has occured.

The aftermarket points deal with this offset loading through the basic design of how it is attached:



There is no moment or couple transmitted to the chassis because the loading is transmitted through the chunk of steel that is the recovery point and it places the bolts in shear. So the bolts are loaded from the front and also up and down to take care of the eccentric loading BUT the key thing is the load is transmitted directly to the chassis not through a joint that is subjected to bending stress too.

I will admit to having recovered 3 vehicles using these types of points. Only one a Prado. Each time I have made sure that the bogged vehicle was dug out 100%. Clearance absolutely everywhere. Easy since all were on dry sand. So I did the easiest most gentle snatch possible just to pull them up onto the top of the sand. Each time I made sure that the tie down points were solid enough for that and in the case of the 120 Prado explained that there was a possiblity that the loading would bend the points or the mount. Each time I advised the bogged driver that his points weren't suitable for a full blown snatch and that the points I was using might bend. I had no doubt that the points were strong enough not to break off and become a missile but I was concerned with the real estate around them bending of becoming damaged.

I would never snatch off something that was likely to fail in a catastrophic way. When I recovered an Xtrail the manual stated that the screw in hook was a tow point only and was not to be used for snatching. So we dug the thing out which took 4 of us about an hour. During this time the poor old dears who owned it sat under a tree because there was no way I wanted to deal with a bogged Xtrail and a heart attack. Pushed 4 maxtrax under the wheels and I TOWED him out and another 500m onto firmer ground, no way was that arrangement strong enough for a snatch recovery.

So the point I am trying to make is just because you think it is wonderful because you can see 3mm of weld all round both sides of a 14mm bar don't expect that means that the load you are putting on it is going to be transmitted correctly to the chassis.

As for damping the snatch strap good luck. Get a rubber band. Stretch between two fingers. Really really tight. And then get someone to cut it.

I have spent more time digging and recovering other people's 4wds but I don't regret one minute of that. Because one day it might be me that needs a hand.

[mackayvx Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close mackayvx]

You are now in a situation very much like a flower presenting itself to attract a bee to help pollinate itself.

WTF?

Jasen, you normally make me giggle but that is one very strange comparison to a snatch strap recovery...

Get some sleep son!

[mackayvx Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close mackayvx]

Lol I would be climbing over the Crew to pull you out ####.

Just think of the bragging rights, I could be famous, I would be a PP celebrity.

Oh I understand now... You are the bee and #### is the flower?

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

There is no moment or couple transmitted to the chassis because the loading is transmitted through the chunk of steel that is the recovery point and it places the bolts in shear. So the bolts are loaded from the front and also up and down to take care of the eccentric loading BUT the key thing is the load is transmitted directly to the chassis not through a joint that is subjected to bending stress too.

There is a serious flaw in your logic, bolts will transmit a bending moment just like a weld. The only difference is how bolts fail.

Also did your stamped plates come with a bolt tension specification and were they installed using a a tension wrench, otherwise they aren't rated.

And like I said previously, you can be pretty sure that the SWL on the rated recovery points is only for the plates and bolts. I doubt very much that the companies producing the recovery points have got hold of the Toyota chassis design drawings and analysed the strength of the mounting points on the chassis. Even more unlikely and difficult to get under there and measure everything to do the calculations.

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

krypto you miss the point. The plates are not bending the add on structure below the chassis and the loading from the bolts to the bolt holes is double shear. Yes the bolts were torqued correctly. I agree that there is no way that the recovery plate makers had any assistance from Toyota but I disagree that Toyota design these for anything other than a load that is static and angle down not parallel to the ground or higher.

Anyway whatever.

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Latte time.

[blkd4d Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close blkd4d]

While all this is going on the committee is trying to figure out what they should have as minimum Vehicle Requirments .
Or does the committee not have a minimum Requirment even though it was ok for the last couple of GTG's .