Would you pull me out?

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

With the X-Rox bar, why not install the Outback Ideas (or similar) 120 series recovery points?

I could but I'm not convinced I would gain anything - it's still relying on the piece welded below the main chassis. What I would like are the three point mounting recovery points that also use a bolt through the main chassis - I would be happy to use those. Haven't seen any for sale though.

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

I could but I'm not convinced I would gain anything - it's still relying on the piece welded below the main chassis. What I would like are the three point mounting recovery points that also use a bolt through the main chassis - I would be happy to use those. Haven't seen any for sale though.

Utilising the same mounting points you had on the ARB bar with your strengthened brackets?

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Utilising the same mounting points you had on the ARB bar with your strengthened brackets?

Like I said before, I'd be happy with those, unfortunately they had to go when I sold the rest of the bar

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Ok to catch up on a few things. That email from ARB Trekky posted is really good, it explains clearly that there is no such thing as a truly rated recovery point for any 4wd let alone a Prado, there isn't even a standard to test to if you wanted to.

Regards the requirements for last years GTG and the non negotiable guide it is a guide because there might be other options for recovery points that we were not aware of, different bars, someone brought an Fgay and don't forget the poor 90 series guys who have even more trouble with recovery points! It's non negotiable in the fact that if you came with factory points only it was time for you to leave.

Regards the use of ARB points but not the factory tie down points, as shown in Trekkys email from ARB they do indeed say they are a recovery point, for winching but not for snatching. A Prado bar can take a 9000lb winch in a double line pull that's 18000lb strain they can take, we said use a bridle so theoretically that's 2x18000lb or 36000lb which is far in excess of any rating on any other recovery point.

Given the complete lack of a standard for recovery points you need to take guidance from wherever you can, if I was running a dictatorship last year and could set the standards as I believe they should be, which is basically the paragraph that says rated recovery points attached to the chassis or on something solidly attached to the chassis which I took from our training manual, then almost no one besides myself would have complied with what they already had fitted.

So the next step is to look at the general consensus of the membership of PP as to what is acceptable, what has worked safely on many occasions, what after many lengthy discussion has always been concluded as the best option for any given circumstance. General consensus has always been that the ARB points are OK if used with a bridal, and particularly the early model factory tow hooks are a disaster waiting to happen. It's also why we went with the towbar option, for all the talk of ratings it's the only recovery point that is truly rated including the mount to the car, but it is not rated high enough! For interest sake the safety factor in towbar design is much lower than for shackles due to it being a towing item rather than lifting. However once again almost exclusively PP members us the tow hitch with no reports of failures despite known issues with the 120 bar.

Finally and most importantly, if we concede that NO points are truly rated, and no points are bullet proof and there is always the possibility that some thing could break then what is the result If that happens?

The most likely failure IMO on a bolt on style recovery point would be the bolts breaking or pulling through the chassis, if this happens and you are using a bridle the recovery point will be stopped from hurting anyone by the equalizer strap and the other recovery point. They chances of both failing at the same split second is so remote its impossible to factor in. There is the possibility of a bolt head flying which is undesirable but it's the best we can do in this situation.

The above also applies to the ARB loop, the advantage here is that there is an extra bolt, so I could easily argue they are actually stronger than the Outback Ideas style recovery points.

If we used the factory points, particularly the early 120 ones welded under the crossmember, once again IMO the most likely failure is a broken weld or the crossmember tearing around the welds. In this scenario the shackle and the strap will be restrained as I apply the same thoughts about a dual failure as being so unlikely that you can't factor that in. In this case though what happens to the rather large U shaped piece of 14mm round steel? It's a potentially lethal projectile, yes a bolt head is also but it's the lesser of 2 evils!

The truth is if there was an easy answer we would never have this debate. I wrote those guidelines based on my experience, knowledge, training, and combined wisdom of the PP community. The committee agreed with them and no one that attended the event refused to comply.

If this years committee can improve on those then that would be excellent, it would be disappointing though to see a lowering of those standards.

Cheers Andrew

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Trekky, your reports of hooks failing, is that the hook straightening or the mount failing? If its the hook straightening then it's not a failure,it's a safety valve that shows too much force was used. If its the mount failing you have a poorly designed or built product.

In regards to what you would need to meet requirements for a GTG, well that's not my problem this year, talk to the Mexicans

Cheers Andrew

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Trekky, your reports of hooks failing, is that the hook straightening or the mount failing? If its the hook straightening then it's not a failure,it's a safety valve that shows too much force was used. If its the mount failing you have a poorly designed or built product.

It's the hook straightening or breaking clean off leaving the larger part still bolted to the mounting point - OK, it's a fairly small piece of metal but then, so's a bullet.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Regards the use of ARB points but not the factory tie down points, as shown in Trekkys email from ARB they do indeed say they are a recovery point, for winching but not for snatching. A Prado bar can take a 9000lb winch in a double line pull that's 18000lb strain they can take, we said use a bridle so theoretically that's 2x18000lb or 36000lb which is far in excess of any rating on any other recovery point.

But that's not the same thing. Being able to take 18,000 lb strain as a straight, gradually applied, pull is not the same as a snatch. I'm not a mechanical engineer but I don't think that having two 18,000 lb points is the same as one 36,000 lb one either.

Thinking about it some more I think that saying the double line pull puts 18,000 lb on the tow point is wrong as well - I believe it is still 9,000 lb. The double pull is at the snatch block not the mounting points - the winch and hence tow point are only seeing 9,000 lb each (and that's a gradual pull not a snatch).

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Are we then saying that the points are not the enemy and it is the practice of snatching that is the most dangerous thing we can do?

Would it be better to recommend that snatch recoveries should be avoided unless there is no other option.

I think there generally is another option which involves more work and time.

Is snatching really necessary or do we do it because we are either lazy, in too much of a hurry to get going or maybe we do it because its more fun?

Spot on there Jasen, it's funny that the first two things people rush out and buy when they start 4WDing seems to be a snatch strap and a Hi-Lift Jack - probably the two most dangerous things the untrained person can use.

I would always use a snatch strap as the last alternative not the first - as evidenced by my snatch strap still being in its original wrapping

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

But that's not the same thing. Being able to take 18,000 lb strain as a straight, gradually applied, pull is not the same as a snatch. I'm not a mechanical engineer but I don't think that having two 18,000 lb points is the same as one 36,000 lb one either.

Thinking about it some more I think that saying the double line pull puts 18,000 lb on the tow point is wrong as well - I believe it is still 9,000 lb. The double pull is at the snatch block not the mounting points - the winch and hence tow point are only seeing 9,000 lb each (and that's a gradual pull not a snatch).

Incidentally, I remember at least one person on PradoPoint saying that they had badly bent the ARB loops when using them to snatch with a bridal.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

In my opinion, and whilst i do not profess to be a 4wd expert, i have in my 50 years of life spent 30+ years in and out of numerous 4wds.

Travelled around Australia and across, been in situations that i would not like to be in again. And i have only used a snatch strap twice.

Snatching for me is my last resort when helping another or if someone wishes to help me. To me it is extremely dangerous.

Where the problem lays is not so much the snatch strap itself, but more on the attitude of the operators. Jasen..you hit the nail on the head. LAZINESS.

People see youtube videos of snatch strapping or out with a BOOFHEAD of a mate with a few dozen beers under the belt having a yobbo time in their jacked up nissan patrols, one gets stuck the other just grabs the snatch strap, hooks it up and roars off in a shower of wheelspin gets to 60km's per hour before the slack is taken and rips the vehicle out of the bog...if they are lucky. or rip a part of the vehicle off and then they piss themselves laughing going FARK, FARKIN HELL Blue, YA RIPPED ME FARKIN BAR off , HA HA HA..chuck us another beer..FARK.

Nearly all stuck situations can be gotten out of with a shovel, sand tracks, tow rope , hi lift jack , winch and a BRAIN.

I knew my comments will anger some..so be it.

A lot of the whole Snatching problems have arisen from misguided hand me down advice from a mate of a mate and then employed in a manner of "now what did me mate say?, hook it through here and over there and the floor it"

I will say again... Use Common sense.

Where possible plan your route in a manner that is the least likely to get you stuck.
If you get stuck, get out asses the situation.
Devise a plan of action for the safest outcome.
Don't reach for what has become the be all to end all recovery device.

end of rant.

Cheers
Steve

Certainly doesn't anger me - you've hit the nail firmly on the head there Steve. You've just described the 'three snapped snatch straps' event I witnessed a month ago. Right down to the beers, the language and the attitude.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Hey Trek, I have lost count the amount of times i have witnessed that scenario. It really erks me no end.. can you tell? LOL

Cheers
Steve

Just a bit

[craigm Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close craigm]

Remind me to give you a wave next time your stuck on the beach Jasen!
( a bite as you would expect....)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hutch Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hutch]

Yep x2 Jasen, I use a snatch strap but am hardly a bogan and my 4 maxtrax are some of the best money ever spent for recovery insurance.....
Then again what would I know aftet all i do have a Steel bar so i supposed that puts me in bogan territory as well.... it is a bit cold this morning I best go get my ugg boots on and put a shirt on over my blue singlet. ...

Hutch- Prado 2012 petrol with the TJM Catologue.

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

In my opinion, and whilst i do not profess to be a 4wd expert, i have in my 50 years of life spent 30+ years in and out of numerous 4wds.

Travelled around Australia and across, been in situations that i would not like to be in again. And i have only used a snatch strap twice.

Snatching for me is my last resort when helping another or if someone wishes to help me. To me it is extremely dangerous.

Where the problem lays is not so much the snatch strap itself, but more on the attitude of the operators. Jasen..you hit the nail on the head. LAZINESS.

People see youtube videos of snatch strapping or out with a BOOFHEAD of a mate with a few dozen beers under the belt having a yobbo time in their jacked up nissan patrols, one gets stuck the other just grabs the snatch strap, hooks it up and roars off in a shower of wheelspin gets to 60km's per hour before the slack is taken and rips the vehicle out of the bog...if they are lucky. or rip a part of the vehicle off and then they piss themselves laughing going FARK, FARKIN HELL Blue, YA RIPPED ME FARKIN BAR off , HA HA HA..chuck us another beer..FARK.

Nearly all stuck situations can be gotten out of with a shovel, sand tracks, tow rope , hi lift jack , winch and a BRAIN.

I know my comments will anger some..so be it.

A lot of the whole Snatching problems have arisen from misguided hand me down advice from a mate of a mate and then employed in a manner of "now what did me mate say?, hook it through here and over there and the floor it"

I will say again... Use Common sense.

Where possible plan your route in a manner that is the least likely to get you stuck.
If you get stuck, get out asses the situation.
Devise a plan of action for the safest outcome.
Don't reach for what has become the be all to end all recovery device.

end of rant.

Cheers
Steve

Hey Steve, that was funny as,
But it's true, It's the patrol/Hilux/beer team like you say showing us how it's done. we should get away with saying that on the Prado forum, I think. Prado drivers are more likely the ones that had no recovery gear at all is what I find.
(I know all, pp have gear, & if they don't they will after reading this thread)
Often we use a strap, because it's just a gentle pull to get them moving again.
Definitely bad advise around about the quarter mile take off & how amazing it is how it gets the vehicle out of anything so easily.

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Craptrax? Are they the brown ones? Dear me no need for name calling darling, hand me another latte.