Would you pull me out?

[smakb Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close smakb]

I know I have put this up before http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MmrL...eature=related jump to 1min 20secs but it still answers the question for me. The only reason I'll be fitting after market ones is because most clubs, PP etc want them on before you can go on an outing with them. I have pulled heaps of times from the factory points and never had an issue but again I will put some on to keep all required happy............Cheers Steve

Steve, to me this YouTube clip says nothing unless there is a lot more information to support it. How the snatch was completed? What equipment was used (e.g. Rating of the snatch strap) ? And most of all, what was the cars history? If it has been in an accident in the front end and not repaired properly, it would create a week point that would be the cause of the failure.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Is that today's paper and is it THE fat lady? I doubt it

Given the on-going saga definitely not today's paper

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

Face it boys this thread is going no where, in more ways than one lol

Does it need a snatch recovery?

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

I didn't really know what to say about it. You said an engineer told you to eye it in?

The word engineer seems to be the most misused word on this forum, almost as if any old engineer knows everything about anything to do with any kind of engineering, for all I know this old engineer could have been a domestic engineer which I think is a cleaner? Someone else said they were a mechanical engineer which could be an air conditioning engineer professing to know everything about engineering.

There are many disciplines in engineering and to my mind the one we are looking for here is a Struct Eng. a specialist in structural engineering, I've worked with a lot of these guys and they don't eye things in, they calculate things and are always very happy to spend all day showing you their calculations and explaining the methods of calculation and assumptions factored in. I have seen no such calculation, just loads of people professing to be experts with no substance.

So if someone tells me they are an engineer I just take it with a pinch of salt till they tell me the specific qualification they have achieved and the letter they have after their name.

I was a Royal Engineer and have many letters after my name but none of them are the right ones for this issue.

If you can't deal with the facts go for the person?

The term engineer does get misused. Not sure what a Royal Engineer is, something to do with crockery or the queen?

As far as I am aware there is no primary qualification as a structural engineer, structural engineering is a subset of mechanical or civil engineering. As for me since you asked , I studied mechanical engineering at uni for 6 years along with some subsequent study and worked both in design and maintenance for 25 years, a lot of it with heavy equipment in the steel industry.

I don't have a lot of letters after my name but i do have the benefit of some experience, and incidentally experienced engineers worth their salt do check that things look right not just in theory but also in practice.

You still ignored the comparison of the tow bar to the recovery points, but given your past form I guess that is to be expected.

[Beach Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Beach]

Not sure what a Royal Engineer is, something to do with crockery or the queen?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Engineers

A little respect please.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Here are a few facts as I see them.
1 Toyota recommend that the factory points are not used for recovery purposes.
2 My recovery Points have SWL 5000 KGS stamped on them and are painted yellow.
3 Increasing numbers of training organisations and off raod driving facilitators are making AMRP's compulsory.
4 42.629% of all facts are made up (this may be considerably more on this forum)

Sorry Jasen, these are your opinions and not facts, the only one that is even close to being a fact is no 2.

I have just checked my Toyota handbook, something I should have done days ago rather than trusting the people who say "Toyota recommend that the factory points are not used for recovery purposes.". In the section on "Emergency towing" (pages 282/283) it says "Only use specified towing eyelet; otherwise your vehicle may be damaged". It also says "Do not jerk the eyelet. Apply steady and even force." and "To avoid damaging the eyelet, do not pull from the side or at a vertical angle. Always pull straight ahead." There is even a section on being stuck in mud and sand etc. that states: "If the emergency towing hook is used to get out when your vehicle becomes stuck in mud, sand or other condition from which the vehicle cannot be driven out under its own power, make sure to observe the precautions mentioned below. Otherwise, excessive stress will be put on the hook and the towing cable or chain may break, causing serious injury or damage. 1 If the towing vehicle can hardly move, do not forcibly continue the towing. Contact your Toyota dealer or a commercial tow truck service for assistance. 2 Tow the vehicle as straight ahead as possible. 3 Keep away from the vehicle during towing."

So, clearly, Toyota DO consider that the "Emergency towing eyelets" can be used to recover the vehicle, even from mud/sand.

As to your second 'fact', the manufacturers of your points clearly describe them as 'Tow points' not 'Recovery points' - I know I'm being pedantic here and whilst they are stamped SWL 5000 KGS this only applies to the plates themselves and becomes completely meaningless once you attach them to the vehicle as (by your own admission) you are not qualified to assess the resultant rating. In fact, fitting them is contrary to what Toyota state in their handbook - quote above "Only use specified towing eyelet; otherwise your vehicle may be damaged". They are stamped and yellow though

On your 'fact' no 3 - whilst it's true, some organisations insist on AMRP's, some clearly don't. How on earth can you say 'Increasing numbers'? This is obviously just speculation on your part.

On your 'fact' no 4 - I know you have put this in jest but given your 'facts' 1 to 3, you are obviously one of those you refer to.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Sorry, I missed page 284 (Tips for towing a stuck vehicle) - it states:

"The following methods are effective to use when your vehicle is stuck in the mud, sand or other condition from which the vehicle cannot be driven out under its own power. Use extreme caution when towing the vehicles. In addition, keep away from the vehicles and towing cable or chain when towing. 1 Remove the sand soil in the front and the back of the tyres. 2 Place stones or wood under the tyres."

So, not only don't Toyota say "Toyota recommend that the factory points are not used for recovery purposes", they actually give basic instructions on how to recover the vehicle using the "Emergency towing eyelets". They are clearly designed for this purpose by the vehicle manufacturer - more than can be said for the aftermarket tow points.

QED

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Regards what engineer would be qualified to assess recovery points. Well turns out I kow one, he runs a business that is solely about testing automotive accessories including but not restricted to, air bag compliance, towbar testing, cargo barrier testing, storage system restraints, high lift jack points testing and much more. He has all the equipment to load test a recovery point if there was a standard to test to.

He lists himself as an Automotive engineer on his business card that's have in front of me, the letters after his name are MSc, BSc, MIEA, MSAE for what it's worth.

In reality the only letters you need after your name are CDF, and if you don't know what they stand for is probably because you have none

Cheers Andrew

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Engineers

A little respect please.

Respect is a two way street. I do actually have the right letters after my name (BEng Mech) for this discussion. I don't like the way it went to letters after your name because if you need to resort to the letters after your name you haven't crafted a very good argument. I'm also not sure how using them contributes to the facts, which have now been quite clearly stated. So I'll leave it at that, it's probably also time to leave this discussion.

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

Krypto don't be a sook and get stuck in, this is supposed to be sport and not taken seriously.

I just feel like I'm talking to a wall or being trolled, neither of which are much fun after a while.

I respect your right to an opinion, we all have that and it's what makes this forum interesting. Just don't pretend that opinions are fact.

In this case your opinion is based on a lot of assumptions and you know the old saying about assumptions, so lets just leave it at that. Like I said before by now the facts are pretty clear and I have learnt a lot about a topic than can seriously hurt people if not treated with respect.

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

Okay, we both learnt something so time for a coldie or where I am right now a cup of tea

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

In reality the only letters you need after your name are CDF, and if you don't know what they stand for is probably because you have none

If you do a Health and Safety course these days one of the first things they tell you is that there is no such thing as Common Sense (or CDF as you eloquently put it). You are not allowed to use these words in any JSEA or SWMS and it is not recognised by any court.

The closest you can get nowadays is "what any reasonable person would do (or know)". When it comes to recoveries you can't even use this as most people wouldn't know what to do and it would be classified as a specialist knowledge requiring certified training.

The problem is there is no legal definition of 'Common sense' - what is common sense to one person isn't necessarily common sense to another.

All we can do is the best we can within our training and experience and above all, step back and consider before any recovery.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Lol tea is fine will me, English Breakfast milk and two sugars.

Navy standard "Julie Andrews" for me

[Beach Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Beach]

Respect is a two way street. I do actually have the right letters after my name (BEng Mech) for this discussion. I don't like the way it went to letters after your name because if you need to resort to the letters after your name you haven't crafted a very good argument. I'm also not sure how using them contributes to the facts, which have now been quite clearly stated. So I'll leave it at that, it's probably also time to leave this discussion.

I am referring to your disrespect of Her Majesty's Royal Engineers. I make no reference to any part of this discussion.

[wooley Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close wooley]

I am referring to your disrespect of Her Majesty's Royal Engineers. I make no reference to any part of this discussion.

you're not from around these parts are you? haha.