Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

[Black Prado Chick Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Black Prado Chick]

So this is going to be an essay which relates to my previous post a few days ago (see here: http://www.pradopoint.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12290) I am not happy at all, and need opinions & advice if possible!

So I will start from the start so it makes sense.....
A few weeks ago I put my car into Toyota to get serviced, I advised them of this very quiet whining noise my car was making on and off which I thought was something to do with my clutch but that day it wasnt making the noise. (how typical). :evil: So they told me as soon as it makes it next time to bring it in. Last Thursday evening my car started making this noise like air was escaping from somewhere, and when I put my foot on the clutch the noise would get louder and changed a bit to a deeper sound, on friday night it got really loud, Saturday morning I went to Toyota but they were shut so I had no choice but to wait until Monday. Monday comes, noise is bad so I take it to Toyota. Left it there all day while they apparently looked at it. They told me that it was something to do with the clutch (I may be female but I'm not that dumb :roll: ) and that the clutch was probably on its way out and clutches arent covered under warranty which I knew, so they said it would be $2,500 for a new clutch! They know I am getting married soon and they told me that it will be fine until after the wedding so not to worry about it and just bring it in then. On Wednesday I was driving to work, stopped at traffic lights and my car stalled when I went to take off, I went to put my foot on the clutch to take it out of gear to restart it and my clutch was flat to the floor, it had dropped completely. I had to get RACV to tow me to Toyota, when we got there they did something under the bonnet to lift the clutch back up, started the car and put their foot on the clutch and it made this horrible grinding sound, they said it was probably a bearing and they were going to look at it tomorrow (as in yesterday) and work out exactly what it was. Well yesterday morning I rang them and they were pulling it apart and would call me when they knew something. 4 hours later I still hadnt heard so I called them.... They said the release bearing was stuffed and needed replacing and that they had to send photos off to head office to have it approved to be fixed under warranty, because my car still has warranty until august this year and has only done 80,000km. I asked them how my clutch was, they said they didnt know as they hadnt looked at it. I heard nothing more.... this morning I rang them, they still hadnt heard from head office as apparently head office were in a meeting until midday, I asked again about my clutch... He said "It's a little worn, you may want to replace it, it only has about 30-50 thousand left" WTF seriously?!!!!!! Why the hell would I replace it when it still has over a years worth of driving in it?! Anyway.... 1pm I rang them again as I hadnt heard nothing, the guy I've been dealing with was apparently with a customer and would call me back. 2.30pm I still hadnt heard from him so I rang again and he answered, he said he had to speak to his foreman and get back to me in 5 mins. 20 minutes later he called back. He said that Toyota had declined to fixing the problem under warranty and that he wasnt happy about it at all. He said his foreman rang Toyota head office about it to question it and they said its declined and thats that. He said his Service Manager was going to call Toyota and put in an appeal because they all think it should be covered under warranty, but because of the long weekend we wont get an answer until Tuesday. I said to him that they should be repairing the car because regardless of whether warranty is going to cover it or I have to pay I will be needing the car fixed anyway, THEN the guy decides to tell me there is more to it than just the bearing.... The bearing has rubbed on the casing and will apparently cost $5,000 to replace! So they are now trying to appeal to head office to get it fixed under warranty. My fiance has rang head office to complain about it all, after head office looked into it some more they said that they found there is also a little bit of dirt in the gear box so head office wanted them to do further investigation into it. In my mind, I think if there is dirt in the gear box then there is a faulty seal somewhere which has caused the dirt to get in there, which has caused the bearing to stuff up, which that seal should be covered under warranty too! (I may be female but come on!!!) So yeah....... now I am without a car and they reckon I wont get my car back until next friday at the very earliest!!!! I have RACV paying for a hire car for me until Monday though, which is good!

So what's everyones opinion's and suggestions? I have no idea what to do now. :cry: :cry: :cry:

[mudboy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mudboy]

Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

Fight it all the way with Toyota as it should be covered

[prh Member Find all posts View Profile Close prh]

Re: Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

IF your foot went flat to the floor, this would suggest a loss of clutch hydraulic fluid. The question would be : what caused the loss? It could be, for example, a failed clutch cylinder/s or a hose/line failure.

This used to happen on my 20-year-old 5-er bmw. I kept a bottle of fluid in the boot for a roadside reservoir refill, until I got around to changing out the clutch slave cylinder (the culprit in my case).

In the case of the clutch throw-out bearing, see this topic: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4218 which points to a possible fix for the throwout bearing and worn case.

Hope you get this resolved.

Paul

[kav Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close kav]

Re: Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

sounds like a warranty issue to me unless you drive with the clutch pedal half depressed. there is a phrase to use in warranty circumstances when companies wont come to the party , you tell them ITS NOT OF MERCHANTABLE QUALITY .that would be the thrust bearing was not of merchantable quality and failed catastrophically causing you to be out of pocket . choice magazine will often take up the fight for these sort of issues and usually when they do the companies run for cover , try contacting them .

[Davros Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Davros]

Re: Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

Hi Black Prado Chick.
I am really sorry to hear your bad news, and so close to your wedding date. You must be really stressed at the moment.
Above all else, keep your chin up. It is only a car. It is obviously very inconvenient to not have it driveable, but you are healthy, and about to embark on a fantastic new life, so try not to fret too much about the car.

If Toyota don't come to the party, here is what I would do to try to keep costs as low as possible.....

Recently, on eBay, there have been a number of gearboxes (complete) to suit your vehicle. What seems to have happened to yours, is that the thrust bearing has frozen and then torn out part of the cast alloy bell housing. This is where the loot quoted by your dealer is going to go. ie: replacement bell housing.
Buy the s/h unit from eBay, wreckers or whatever, which have been selling for around the $1300.00 mark. Any decent mechanic will fit the unit for around $400.00 getting up to about $600.oo if you transfer over all of your internals to the replacement bell housing.

Anyway, you will get out of it for about $3k less than from the dealer, which means you are still parting with a lot of loot, but better than the alternative.

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck with the warrantee claim, and hope it goes your way.

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

Re: Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

Not good news but they will most likely deny the warranty if there is mud/dirt inside the housing. If you change gears in the mud then it will suck mud in. I did this in a GQ and it rooted the clutch. Good luck and I hope I am wrong.

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

So what's everyones opinion's and suggestions? I have no idea what to do now. :cry: :cry: :cry:

It may or may not be a warranty issue depending of course on what caused the problem.

If there is 'dirt' in the gearbox and your release bearing has seized then as a mechanic I would be suggesting that water/mud contamination that has caused the problem. From experience with our fleet of vehicles, those that have been through deep water/mudholes or even worse bogged in mud/water sometimes have this problem.

If that was the case, and there was additional evidence such as grit or dirt in the bellhousing, then the warranty would probably be denied. The problem can occur when a hot vehicle is bogged and the cold water cools the box rapidly, causing the air inside to contract sucking air in from outside. If the outside is water and mud then it is sucked in. This happens most often with diffs and wheel bearings. When they say dirt in the 'gearbox' they may mean the bellhousing where normally dirt is not found. If there is 'dirt' in the bellhousing then I think you may lose the argument

My suggestion (based upon the emotion in your post) is to calm down and put things in perspective. Your car is broken, request it to be fixed at Toyotas expense under warranty and state that if they wont then you will proceed with court action through the small claims court. If you are calm and articulate then you should get a better outcome. The last thing you want is to be seen by Toyota as that "crazy screaming women'. Much better to be that 'cold hard calculating ice women that wont stop'. Work out what you want to happen and explain it to them. (The fact you are getting married and the vehicle is REALLY important is irrelevant to the discussion sadly)

Bottom line is there is if you think you are not being treated fairly then it needs to go to a third party.

Best of luck.

And you did ask for our opinions 8)

[Auss15 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Auss15]

Re: Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

Ill keep it simple,if you feel that your clutch has disintergrated prematurely and its not related to your your driving style or abuse of the vehicle,I would be getting the Department of Fair Trading involved. I have used them on a few occasions (all motor vehicle related) and have had successful outcomes.

[grande1810 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close grande1810]

Re: Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

Try,as others have suggested, to reason with "TOYOTA', if that fails take your complaint to "Fair Trading" or your state motoring body, they will normally side with you on these matters,
Good Luck & let us know the outcome.
Cheers

[Black Prado Chick Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Black Prado Chick]

Re: Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

My suggestion (based upon the emotion in your post) is to calm down and put things in perspective.

The last thing you want is to be seen by Toyota as that "crazy screaming women'. Much better to be that 'cold hard calculating ice women that wont stop'.

:? I dont think at any point that I gave the impression that I was this "crazy screaming woman" as you say. I just stated the facts of the issue... :shock: :? So I dont think its right for you to lable me as that. I have at no point lost my cool with them or spoke to them in a nasty manner because of the fact that I want them on my side and to this point they appear to be, whereas head office are not. I am purely just asking for opinions of everyone regards to the warranty issue, not my behaviour......

As for my wedding.... that was something Toyota mentioned as their driver who drops me off at work when my car gets serviced had told them that when he heard that my car was back in there after having it there on monday, its not as if I used the whole "oh im getting married, please feel sorry for me story" to both toyota and prado point, because at the end of the day it is irrelevant to the story and I know that.... so mentioning your issue with this is irrelevant to the discussion sadly! 8)

[Black Prado Chick Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Black Prado Chick]

Re: Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

Thanks everyone else for your valid oppions and suggestions.
I do not believe it is due to my driving style as I do not drive with the pedal half to the floor. My old car (a mazda :roll: ) was also manual and I did 120,000kms in it with similar conditions and NEVER had a clutch problem, being a mazda I would expect it would have had lots of problems should it have been my driving. As for the dirt, I spoke to a mechanic friend and he said that more than likely its not even dirt, but metal shavings from the pressure plate. PLUS Toyota never mentioned anything to me about dirt in the gearbox, only head office mentioned this. I think (dont quote me on that one) if Toyota (the service department) saw the "dirt" they probably wouldnt want to fight head office for me. Would I be correct in saying that?

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

Re: Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

PLUS Toyota never mentioned anything to me about dirt in the gearbox, only head office mentioned this. I think (dont quote me on that one) if Toyota (the service department) saw the "dirt" they probably wouldnt want to fight head office for me. Would I be correct in saying that?

Maybe they're playing good guy, bad guy. Make TMCA look like the bad guy and the dealer look like the good guy. I would want to see the disassembled clutch/housing and correspondence to/from TMCA for myself.

Unfortunately most clutch warranty issues I have heard of have not ended in favour of the owner.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Re: Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

Hi BPC, The "throw out bearing" or as i have always called them the thrust bearing may well have been caused by mud or whatever getting into the housing. I've read a few of the trip reports and i reckon you mignt have had a play in the mud once or twice :wink: Not being familiar with the manual box in the Prado i couldn't offer an opinion on whether the bell housing should be sealed or not, probably not completely sealed if it is like most other gearboxes. So the thrust bearing being buggered may not be a warranty claim, however, The bearing :?: or whatever rubbing on the housing needing the housing to be replaced, I can't see how getting mud or water into the bell housing would cause this. I personally would suspect that whatever caused the bearing to rub is the real issue and the bearing is probably stuffed from metal shavings getting into it from the rubbing. I think it would be worth your while finding out exactly what caused this rubbing as this seems to me to be the start of the problem.

I had an issue with my transfer case at 11,000kms, see here if your interested viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8384 Toyota didn't want to know about that problem either. Eventually they realised i wasn't going to roll over and an $800 dollar job was reduced to $200, i was happy with that as it wasn't clear what had caused the problem. I don't see that it is up to you to prove that the problem is Toyotas. They shoud have to prove to you that it was either your fault, or normal wear and tear if they knock back the claim.

Best of luck


Cheers Andrew

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

[quote=Black Prado Chick]

My suggestion (based upon the emotion in your post) is to calm down and put things in perspective.

The last thing you want is to be seen by Toyota as that "crazy screaming women'. Much better to be that 'cold hard calculating ice women that wont stop'.

:? I dont think at any point that I gave the impression that I was this "crazy screaming woman" as you say. I just stated the facts of the issue... :shock: :? So I dont think its right for you to lable me as that. I have at no point lost my cool with them or spoke to them in a nasty manner because of the fact that I want them on my side and to this point they appear to be, whereas head office are not. I am purely just asking for opinions of everyone regards to the warranty issue, not my behaviour......

As for my wedding.... that was something Toyota mentioned as their driver who drops me off at work when my car gets serviced had told them that when he heard that my car was back in there after having it there on monday, its not as if I used the whole "oh im getting married, please feel sorry for me story" to both toyota and prado point, because at the end of the day it is irrelevant to the story and I know that.... so mentioning your issue with this is irrelevant to the discussion sadly! 8)[/quote:2kijsduq]

As I said in the first line "Based upon the emotion in your post" - sorry if this offended you.

I deal with customers everyday that have some issue with what my team has done (they work in a fairly thankless environment).

The ones that cause the most concern, or get the best outcome, are the cold clinical ones that stick to the facts and what they want. The ones that are emotional tend to lose their momentum and get labelled just as I posted.

My point was that you need to be clinical and cold. I would suggest that what the dealership is telling you and telling toyota may well be different.

So sorry if you thought I was having a go at you. That wasnt my intent. I was trying to suggest how customers get labelled and that you dont want that to happen.

Stick to the facts.

1. Your throwout bearing has collapsed. Why did it collapse? There are two reasons normally;
The first is incorrect use (foot resting on the clutch pedal slightly when driving which is often supported by a worn pedal rubber) This causes the bearing to constantly spin at engine revs and causes premature failure.
The other is that the bearing has been submerged or contaminated by water/mud. This often occurs if the vehicle has been bogged or used at length in water. The clutch area is not a sealed unit and if its under water for even a short period it will fill up. The water and gunk gets into the bearing and it destroys itself.

I think you will lose this argument that the bearing was a warranty issue. Particularly if there was dirt inside the bellhousing as this would indicate it has been submerged at some point.

2. You took it to Toyota and they told you the clutch was on its way out and should be replaced soon (not immediately if I read your thread correctly).

This is where I think any further damage other than the throwout bearing should be a warranty job. You brought it to the attention of the dealer and they did not act upon it. Their advice was wrong. If the throwout bearing is noisy then the hardcoating is coming off the bearings. As soon as that happens they heat up and destroy themselves. This is why your pedal went to the floor - it had nothing to push against the clutch plate fingers anymore. Had they replaced it this would not have happened.

3. If it were my problem I would accept liability for the throwout bearing replacement and the costs that would incur for that to happen (a new bearing and labour to R&R the gearbox.) While they are at it I would fit a new clutch plate and pressure plate and maybe machine the flywheel - if you got dirt/muddy water in their then the flywheel might be scored anyway.

I would deny liability for any further damage and that if they include that on the invoice that you will refer the matter to the small claims court for compensation. I would also advise that I will be writing to a number of magazines/newspapers advising consumers of the issue.

I would do this in writing and hand a copy to the dealership and send a registered copy (and a fax copy) to Head Office.

This does two things. If the dealership REALLY are on your side then they will be on to head office telling them that this lawyer type person is making these demands and it does not look good and should 'they' just settle the matter now.

They will, or should, 'Risk Manage" the issue. For $2500 they probably dont need the grief and you have a good case.

If they dont come to the party then have it fixed, pay the money and tell them you will see them in court.

You can then head down to the small claims court and fill out the paperwork, pay your $50 (or so) and lodge the claim. Fax a copy of the claim to Toyota and the dealership. The bottom line for them is that they will need to employ a solicitor to deal with the matter. It will cost them at least $750 for a lawyer to attend for the hearing and probably the same for them to prepare. And they still may lose and have to pay for your costs and legal fees.

Good luck.

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

Re: Warranty Issue------HELP!!!!

I dont think he was meaning your a crazy hot headed woman. He was simply saying that if you go in cool calm & collected to speak about the problem you will probably get alot further then some one walking in screaming and shouting as some people do, as mentioned better to be thought of as 'cold hard calculating ice women that wont stop'. You no the type, some woman that some of us blokes think they have bigger ba##s then a bloke. They will be thinking this lady is not gunna back down, the old saying its the quit ones you have to watch. There was no intentions meant by him as far as you been some crazy screaming woman (well thats the way I read his reply anyway) as Im sure others will agree. I use to work for Toyota and even in spare parts we had four price listings, nice person, bit of a pain, arsewhole and arrogant prick, depending on your attitude depended on how much you got charged. I would be requesting you be allowed to go in, take some pictures of everything then post on here so as some one with some mechanical knowledge might be able to identify what has happened and give you further advice. There is a post on here some where about other pp members having issues with mud getting into the manual gearbox/s and destroying the clutch. My mate has a business as a 4wd tour operator, when ever I have been out and about with him he always diverts around mud if possible, I asked him why and he always replys with ""mud means money"". I hope you have a good outcome and as mentioned while its a major pain having your vehicle off the road and a big let down dont let it spoil your upcoming event, your wedding. Weddings can be stessful enough as they are (been there done that). Best of luck with everything and keep us in the loop as to what is happening. Regards Steve

[quote=Black Prado Chick]

My suggestion (based upon the emotion in your post) is to calm down and put things in perspective.

The last thing you want is to be seen by Toyota as that "crazy screaming women'. Much better to be that 'cold hard calculating ice women that wont stop'.

:? I dont think at any point that I gave the impression that I was this "crazy screaming woman" as you say. I just stated the facts of the issue... :shock: :? So I dont think its right for you to lable me as that. I have at no point lost my cool with them or spoke to them in a nasty manner because of the fact that I want them on my side and to this point they appear to be, whereas head office are not. I am purely just asking for opinions of everyone regards to the warranty issue, not my behaviour......

As for my wedding.... that was something Toyota mentioned as their driver who drops me off at work when my car gets serviced had told them that when he heard that my car was back in there after having it there on monday, its not as if I used the whole "oh im getting married, please feel sorry for me story" to both toyota and prado point, because at the end of the day it is irrelevant to the story and I know that.... so mentioning your issue with this is irrelevant to the discussion sadly! 8)[/quote:2nny5gjy]