Conundrum - when to refuse recovery assistance

[LiveFreeAndRoam Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LiveFreeAndRoam]

As per the post on rated recovery points, Prado's have no rated recovery points unless they are added aftermarket.

So, you find a fellow 4WD'er thoroughly stuck (I mean thoroughly). You see they have no rated recovery points front or back.

What do you do and why?

LFaR.
PS: I know of a situation where recovery equipment failed and left a boy, who was in the prime of his life, blinded. So it's not an entirely hypothetical question.

[Chippy Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chippy]

My thoughts only ... so feel free to wade in boots and all ...

Making a habit of practising safe recoveries should minimise the chances of accidental injury and death ... but nothing is ever that cut and dried.

My personal preference is to help others out .. rather than to drive past pointing and laughing.

Life and death takes priority ... if saving a life or limb means taking a risk then I would take the risk ... but leave my family somewhere safe and out of the way.

If the stuckee (for want of a better word) looks like losing the lot (ie: rising tide) I would certainly try ...

... but the over-riding priority is to get the people to safety first as the vehicle is replaceable.

If the stick is due to the stuckee's gross stupidity, and any involvement is likely to get me caught up in that stupidity, then I would have to make a judgement call as I'm not prepared to risk me and mine on a wade through the shallow end of the gene pool.

Cheers
Chippy

[Signature035 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Signature035]

If the stick is due to the stuckee's gross stupidity, and any involvement is likely to get me caught up in that stupidity, then I would have to make a judgement call as I'm not prepared to risk me and mine on a wade through the shallow end of the gene pool.

I'm with you Chippy.......

However, you may have noted in a different thread, I carry MAXTRAX, and rather than risk / stress my vehicle, I am more than happy to lend them to those in need when I come across them........

[dirttracker Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dirttracker]

Hey guys,
Most people I am sure would try to help out. I would suggest using an equaliser strap, something I would do even if ridgy didge points were available, to reduce to stress and then do a walking recovery. That is all at walking pace. The rev and yank isn't good for either car.

Was on fraser last year and found a backpacker troopy blocking the track. Out we hop to do a reverse snatch. Look for the recoverey points under the truck.... not there! Other attachment points... not there! anything to attach to.... rust. If anything we would have pulled the rear spring out if we had attached there as they were not holding on by much.

Let the tyres down to 20 lbs from 70 lbs. Into the truck... not in 4wd.... Out she came.

[UberSarge Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close UberSarge]

Here Here Chippy!!!

I completely agree. I can relate one story of stupidity when I was going on a track in the mountains and being flagged down by one of the Great Unwashed driving what appeared to be a very badly maintained HiLux.

His question to me was along the lines of:

"Dude, how long is this track? I need to show my mates some extreme stuff but my fuel light came on about 10 minutes ago..." :shock:

Needless to say, we had already been going for 30 minutes of rough stuff and were about 100kms from the nearest fuel if we'd kept going... After some discussion about the relative intelligence of this undesirable, his response was "She'll be right mate" :evil:

Charles Darwin was a visionary...

Oh, and CHIPPY FOR PM!!

[120GXV6 Member Find all posts View Profile Close 120GXV6]

As in the first rule of First Aid - Do not risk the rescuer!

I'm pretty much with Chippy - I would take some risk personnally to help someone else, but would only risk myself (and possibly another adult who was fully aware of what they were getting into).

[MTpockets Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close MTpockets]

Pretty much agree with chippy, however...
I am in a very safety minded club and recoveries are practiced on a regular basis. I always make it clear to the person I am helping that I am the only person who is in charge and everyone must do as I instruct. Once that is clear I will then attempt to snatch them out by snatching from the diff if they dont have rated points. For those who are not aware, your rear or (if you have one) front diff is a rated recovery point if you wrap the snatch strap around the housing properly using a rated shackle on the recovery vehicle if needed. Make sure there is nobody within 1 and a half times the length of the snatch strap including each side of the strap.
I would be very hesitant doing a recovery on a car that has nothing to attach to. I have seen way too many objects fly through the air and hit stuff from failed recoveries.
my 5 cents worth, and open to fire !!

[9W6VX Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close 9W6VX]

I was not aware that the diffs can be used as a recovery point.

As you mentioned, with a rated shackle that makes sense. Would it be at the centre pumpkin or can it be anywhere along the diff?

Thanks for the heads up.

Cheers

[xvprado Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close xvprado]

Selamat Petang Encik 9W6VX

How is Beautiful Sabah ?

On recoveries.....couple of my "personal" rules

Bank on assesing your risk and that of others on the most catastrophic outcome, anything better than that then becomes a bonus

If Im asked to recover, then Im in charge

If Im assisting, then I take instructions

I will generally only use my gear, or that of a very well trusted and known colleague

I will walk away from dangerous recoveries or dodgey gear, Bad gear especially so because the risk is unkown, therefore the balance of consequences is equally unknown

I will always calmly and clearly offer an opinion, if it at the end of the day it doesnt meet the stuckee's expectations, I walk

Those participating in a recovery will have a specific job to do, nothing more nothing less

I am "happy" to see a vehicle lost over the risk of maiming someone

Sounds tough, but after seeing the result of a recovery gone wrong, you have to be

This is a high risk activity, a long walk for help (albeit safely) always beats a funeral

[9W6VX Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close 9W6VX]

Hi there xvprado,

Good evening to you and I am pleasantly surprised that you know where 'The Land Below The Wind is!'

I agree with your points. All very valid.

Cheers

[Just*Managing Member Find all posts View Profile Close Just*Managing]

I agree with most of above. I do it but stress that if they accept my help, I take full control until they say they no longer want my help & I stress that any damage to their vehicle is their own responsibility.
Before we start though, I lower their tyre pressure because almost every single time I've helped someone out, they have their tyres way too high. Then give them a shovel to dig the worst of it out before you pull. And finally, wherever possible, make sure you have a camera or video on hand to score that potentially winning Funniest home videos shot

[MTpockets Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close MTpockets]

I agree with most of above. I do it but stress that if they accept my help, I take full control until they say they no longer want my help & I stress that any damage to their vehicle is their own responsibility.
Before we start though, I lower their tyre pressure because almost every single time I've helped someone out, they have their tyres way too high. Then give them a shovel to dig the worst of it out before you pull. And finally, wherever possible, make sure you have a camera or video on hand to score that potentially winning Funniest home videos shot

Well put and I agree 100%. Especially the camera part hehehe :lol:

[LiveFreeAndRoam Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LiveFreeAndRoam]

Guys, thanks for the great ideas and very wise words.

As they say, it is knowledge that will set you free... I hadn't thought of it quite so literally b4x4.

The idea of leaving another 4x4 stranded is also impossible for me to contemplate, and clearly others feel the same way.

I especially liked the use of the diff as a recovery point; for all my years of reading and 4WDing (including a sand-driving training course that practiced recoveries), nobody has ever mentioned the diff as a recovery point. I wonder if those 4x4 clubs that insist on rated recovery points would be impressed if you pointed at my diffs . Thanks Les! (I have some questions on diff-recovery below).

Also, Rob's point about MaxTrax is well taken; they are on my Santa's list. I am considering also adding the X-Jack to my recovery gear, which seems like it may be a big time-saver.

Dirtracker's mention of the equaliser strap reminds me that is also on my shopping list. I wondered if an equaliser strap is essentially the same as a tree-saver strap. Do you know? Some places (like ARB) didn't have equaliser straps, but they did have tree-savers.

My impression is that there is a tendency to snatch-first and ask questions later. From everyone's comments here, using non-snatching techniques first (esp. the ever simple lowering of the tyre-pressure - thanks Just*Managing) would seem the safest option. As things become desperate, snatching may be the only option.

Les, some questions about diff recovery... I like the idea, though have some questions if you don't mind.

I'm pretty sure no 4x4 club would be happy with me suggesting the diffs are my front and rear recovery points. Though, perhaps they should? When thoroughly stuck, the diffs are often buried. By the time you dig down to the diffs, the car is possibly already free. Also, don't diffs get really, really, really hot? I wouldn't be in a hurry to put my strap around a hot-diff, so it may take quite a while b4x4 I get around to the diff. Finally, does the angle the strap make from the diff to the recovery-vehicle cause the strap to rub on the bumper; potentially damaging the panel work of the recoveree's vehicle? Just curious and realise many options need to be considered with any recovery exercise.

Cheers to you all!
LFaR.

[Chippy Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chippy]

The pointers that have come up from this thread just go to prove the wealth of knowledge that's bundled up in PP - its awesome. Now ... when do we get down and write the text book on recoveries ??? :lol:

Dirtracker's mention of the equaliser strap reminds me that is also on my shopping list. I wondered if an equaliser strap is essentially the same as a tree-saver strap. Do you know? Some places (like ARB) didn't have equaliser straps, but they did have tree-savers..

I always used a standard tree trunk protector as an equaliser ... until recently when my local ARB store had some Just Straps Equaliser straps on the shelf ... and I bought two (for Bek's birthday ). The equaliser straps just seem to have a little extra protection in the middle of the strap.

Also love the KISS principle .... tyres down, check its in 4WD ops: , grab a shovel .... and do these first. Then a walking pace pull - even a gentle static pull - before trying to rip any recovery points off with a "Charge of the Light Brigade" snatch recovery :shock:

... and while there's a hint of an opportunity .... how would you recover a vehicle that is on its side ? What parts of the vehicle would be safe to anchor to in order to pull it back onto its wheels ??

Cheers
Chippy

[Chuck Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chuck]

Ahhh that's the put it in 4WD to start with. :lol:

but I agree safety is the first priority & the KISS principle works the best.