Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

[Golly Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Golly]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

Good on you Matt, hope this venture grabs some momentum. To have leverage for access to tracks is only a good thing and to have the insurance aspect of it too is great for newbies to the hobbie. 8)

[Darren C Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Darren C]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

yep, all for it. It wont be long and you wont get access to alot of places without it!

[FlyingBushPig Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close FlyingBushPig]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

I like the idea for the reasons stated but I'd need more info before having any real idea if I'd pay.

I understand the issues here & of course it's sad it has to be this way. Personally, if it is a matter of $20-$30, yeah, I'd pay it but much more and I wouldn't see the worth here in Vic when we're a small group who have only just started doing trips - if it's a full 4WD club membership that is.

Excuse the totally stupid and unrealistic question, but, if visitors would be able to come and sign a waiver, what stops a 4WD club running with 1 member, and having everyone attending trips signing a waiver to save paying the insurance? :twisted: sounds crazy I know but if it's a matter of paying for insurance, I think in Vic at least you would find people just organizing their own trips outside of pradopoint rather than paying much more than $30. With the turn out you get in WA I think it's a totally different story.

That aside, I would very much hate to see the forum become a financial thing. I think the PP community is so great because it welcomes people from such a wide range of lifestyles, financial status etc. This would definitely change if it were to become "members only" in some way.

[mav Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close mav]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

I like the idea for the reasons stated but I'd need more info before having any real idea if I'd pay.

I understand the issues here & of course it's sad it has to be this way. Personally, if it is a matter of $20-$30, yeah, I'd pay it but much more and I wouldn't see the worth here in Vic when we're a small group who have only just started doing trips - if it's a full 4WD club membership that is.

Excuse the totally stupid and unrealistic question, but, if visitors would be able to come and sign a waiver, what stops a 4WD club running with 1 member, and having everyone attending trips signing a waiver to save paying the insurance? :twisted: sounds crazy I know but if it's a matter of paying for insurance, I think in Vic at least you would find people just organizing their own trips outside of pradopoint rather than paying much more than $30. With the turn out you get in WA I think it's a totally different story.

That aside, I would very much hate to see the forum become a financial thing. I think the PP community is so great because it welcomes people from such a wide range of lifestyles, financial status etc. This would definitely change if it were to become "members only" in some way.

I don't think there is any suggestion that PP become a members only place, the forum would remain free and open to use. However organised trips via PP do need to be covered by insurance. Like Matt has said, it will only take one mishap and someone bangs up their Prado or worse someone gets seriously injured on a Pradopoint trip and it could get ugly very quickly. It is just the way of the world we now live in unfortunately.

[jcas24 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close jcas24]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

I may be wrong but I thought this 'club' insurance would only cover you from personal injury/public liability. Its not an insurance policy for your car, and everyone who attends trip would need their own insurance and its their responsibility to make sure their car is covered off-road.

[learner52 Member Find all posts View Profile Close learner52]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

Matt,

you have picked a bitch of a job mate, there are always going to be people that will whinge over $30 but buy a TV for $2000 and laugh. I spent $60k on the Prado so I cant see how $50 is a worry....and yes it takes that much to fill up fortnightly to.
I can certainly see where you are coming from and I agree that we need to seriously look at something. I was on the Lancelin trip (had a ball with a brilliant bunch of people) and yes there were a lot of vehicles there at the one time. We never looked like having much trouble but I would love to have seen what happened when something went wrong.
Personally I will never take the site to task as I was bought up to accept responsibility for my own stupidity in taking the risk of driving the Prado where it should not have been driven. I am old enough to know better, and I know what it feels like to be in pain, not a choice I would make just for the hell of it. I would think that most of the people I spent the day with would think the same BUT thank god we are all different.

I have no real idea as to what is the best method but I am putting my hand up to be part of this top class site and be in the club.
I am now a very proud owner of a HUGE Pradopoint sticker on my rear window.

Best of luck and fingers crossed it comes off good.

Pete

[Snaga Wishing I was lost Find all posts View Profile Close Snaga]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

You've got my support regards a financial club.
Many, many times Wengnuts and I have commented on it's merits while heading off on PP trips.
As someone who goes off for a 'drive' and invites others to come along I regularly get referred to as the 'trip leader'... which does worry me a little if anything were to go wrong.

Only recently during the Mt Mee thread referring to track closures and the following chat.... I though about how a PP clean up trip could be organised (and recognised) with the NP/SF of the area.

[stephenvsl Member Find all posts View Profile Close stephenvsl]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

I've been involved with 4wd clubs for many years and think this is a great idea. Personally, I would organise and lead trips under the club arrangement, I am very reluctant to do so under the current arrangements. Most club expenses relate to things like magazine production and postage, etc - not relevant here, so costs would be quite reasonable. Keep any rules and procedures clear and to a minimum - if rules and procedures are onorous and complicated, they are less likely to be able to be complied with and if something does go wrong one of the first questions asked is "What are the club procedures and were they followed?". As we are national, you could look at the best value arrangements with regards to affiliation fees, insurance and compliance and choose the state that has the best value. About 1 in about 200 members will be trouble so a simple process to boot them out quickly is required. There will be lots of people on the forum who can provide examples of club constitutions, trip sheets, etc, etc - gather them up and take the best bits from each. I'll join, and I'll run trips.

[Chippy Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Chippy]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

I am competely in favour of this .... even if it is purely for peace of mind and a bit of additional insurance.

We have an amazing group of people in WA and don't seem to have any problem putting together a day trip, or weekender, with 10 or more vehicles participating.
I'm happy to lead a trip with this group, or support anyone else in leading, either as tailgunner or navi.
Its a really friendly group of like minded individuals and families who look out for each other and always lend a hand when someone's stuck.
There is also so much expertise amongst this group that you really feel safe on a trip .....
.... how often do you get to travel with elctrical and mechanical engineers, highly qualified and experienced tradies from every background, medical staff, biologists etc.
I've stayed with PP after comparing it to a number of 4WD clubs that were so tied up in rules and payments for everything that there was no room for fun.


... but we live in an increasingly litigious society .... and sheer number of trips, and number of participants, increases the probability of something going wrong.


I believe access to the forum should remain free, as it is an incredible resource and its participation reaches beyond the borders of our little island, but a financial contribution for trip participation is a small price to pay for peace of mind.

To me, this is just a common sense step forward for the PP community.

Cheers
Chippy

[09PradoGXL Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close 09PradoGXL]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

I may be wrong but I thought this 'club' insurance would only cover you from personal injury/public liability. Its not an insurance policy for your car, and everyone who attends trip would need their own insurance and its their responsibility to make sure their car is covered off-road.

You are 100% correct Joel.

It's not for the car, it's to cover the place you are at and other people. We must all be sure that we have full off road coverage, before venturing off the tar ever. It's a public liability arrangement, like Mav mentioned about. It's all about people and the areas. It's also about gaining access to areas within the future. Alot of government organizations are going to be calling for public liability insurance for groups such as ours, before they will be able to enter an area as a group.

That's all, just an arse covering exercise, nothing sinister about the idea.

I was going to ask the same question jcas24 asked. And pradogxlv6 answered it. But I have a few more.

First I am all for supporting this. PP is a large and active group and if it is vulnerable to the laws then it needs protection. If fees are the only way then so be it.
As others have mentioned, I don't want to see a great place fall victim to bureaucracy. Running an organization is going to add work load to several members. And if we can't get that dedication then it may slowly die.

Are these the only two reasons for needing to form an entity.
1. Liability insurance when on trips. And is this only needed as an extension of private liability insurance to cover members in restricted/private property?
2. Forum members, moderators, hosts, and trip organizers, protecting themselves from law suits. Does being a club actually protect from this, or do we just need to improve our disclaimer process?

I know there are other benefits to being a club, such as the access to restricted/private property, etc. I am just trying to focus on the necessity at the moment.

[mav Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close mav]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

I may be wrong but I thought this 'club' insurance would only cover you from personal injury/public liability. Its not an insurance policy for your car, and everyone who attends trip would need their own insurance and its their responsibility to make sure their car is covered off-road.

You are 100% correct Joel.

It's not for the car, it's to cover the place you are at and other people. We must all be sure that we have full off road coverage, before venturing off the tar ever. It's a public liability arrangement, like Mav mentioned about. It's all about people and the areas. It's also about gaining access to areas within the future. Alot of government organizations are going to be calling for public liability insurance for groups such as ours, before they will be able to enter an area as a group.

That's all, just an arse covering exercise, nothing sinister about the idea.

I was going to ask the same question jcas24 asked. And pradogxlv6 answered it. But I have a few more.

First I am all for supporting this. PP is a large and active group and if it is vulnerable to the laws then it needs protection. If fees are the only way then so be it.
As others have mentioned, I don't want to see a great place fall victim to bureaucracy. Running an organization is going to add work load to several members. And if we can't get that dedication then it may slowly die.

Are these the only two reasons for needing to form an entity.
1. Liability insurance when on trips. And is this only needed as an extension of private liability insurance to cover members in restricted/private property?
2. Forum members, moderators, hosts, and trip organizers, protecting themselves from law suits. Does being a club actually protect from this, or do we just need to improve our disclaimer process?

I know there are other benefits to being a club, such as the access to restricted/private property, etc. I am just trying to focus on the necessity at the moment.

The problem is that it is difficult to secure insurance from an insurance underwriter unless we are an entity. Currently we are not an entity in the eyes of the insurance world as we only exist in the ether. Unless we are an incorporated entity we face problems.

I made a wrong analogy in a prior post regarding vehicle damage it was not what I was meaning to say, the problem stems from physical injuries or problems caused by our presence in a national park such as a bushfire or damage to park property etc. It is occuring throughout Australia that the Parks & Wildlife Service are requiring groups to have public liability insurance before they are allowed to enter the parks as a group. Depending on the state service depends on the definition of the term "group". But generally speaking they are starting to insist on park group permmits to undertake motorised vehicle gatherings in national parks and they will only issue the permit if the group holds public liability insurance.

[Prado887 Member Find all posts View Profile Close Prado887]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

This is a fantastic idea, unfortunately Public liability is fast becoming one of those things
you cant go out and enjoy your own backyard without worrying what could happen if someone steps on the proverbial Bindi
and decides to get nasty. Im in

Ryan

[Yota Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Yota]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

there are many more benifits than just insurance.
the 4wd clubs asociation run an acredited 4wd training program that we could penifit from/partisipate in
access to club competions, not just extreme comps but clubkhanas, funkhana, navrum events
an organised body to help in our local comunitys - fundraisers, charity days,
and as Matt said in his first post, the 4wd clubs asociation gives us a voice at state and federal government levels.

I have been looking into joining a club for some time, but most of the local clubs seem to be comp focused, while I enjoy watching comps I was looking for a more turing based club. After this years GTG, I have no dout pradopoint.com 4WD club would suit me to a T

[adrian Member Find all posts View Profile Close adrian]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

I would happily join.

Unfortunately the world we live in is so prone to litigation, we simply cannot afford not to have some kind of protection.

As FlyingBushPig stated, here in Vic we have only just started going on trips, I believe if members had adequate insurance coverage, then we actually might get more people happy to put their hand up to organise trips.

I would be happy to help out in any way I can, from wet and soggy Melbourne.

Good luck Matt

Cheers
Adrian

[fishnut Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close fishnut]

Re: Pradopoint forum 4WD Club membership ?

As much as I don't want this to happen to PP - I'm completely with you! I'll join - hell, as long as I'm protected by law, I'll put my hand up as a committee member/WA rep/whatever. :shock: did I say that - what am I thinking :?:

Does being a club actually protect from this, or do we just need to improve our disclaimer process?

I'm sure you know, but in Australia you can't legally waive your rights (to sue, for example), so the disclaimer does nothing more than muddy the water in court - it just demonstrates that you were aware of the risks, not neccessarily that you understood and fully accepted the risks... so anyone involved in the forum could be sued in reality (whether it is successful is another story), but the ONLY way to avoid that is to be insured against it...and as pointed out, the only way to get insured is to be incorporated.

I've been involved in setting up several clubs with activities that involve 'risk' and agree that we need to go down this path before it gets ugly. As someone else said - keep the club rules to a bare minimum, and the forum free.