Bull Bars Under Threat

[croozza Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close croozza]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Interesting reading there fellas, glad we've kept it all dignified and respectable so far!

Of cause mate, we are all 4wders, and love the outdoors, our opinions may differ, but that is because we are all different, we have different beliefs too.

[Seththecursed Member Find all posts View Profile Close Seththecursed]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

I considered a Smart Bar but not being available for the 120 series I didn't look into it any further. I would like to see ARB make a copy of their bar but in the plastic like the smart bar. That would be interesting and a good alternative to their steel bar and the ugly smart bar. I would assume a lot more people would be interested in the plastic if it looked as good as the steel bar (Or at least close as possible to it). I know I would.

Also another possibility would be for someone to design some sort of bolt/clip on for the front of the bullbar that you could fit on for when your in city limits. Some thing that would absorb the impact of said pedestrian and prevent any serious injury.

[lionel Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close lionel]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

I considered a Smart Bar but not being available for the 120 series I didn't look into it any further. I would like to see ARB make a copy of their bar but in the plastic like the smart bar. That would be interesting and a good alternative to their steel bar and the ugly smart bar. I would assume a lot more people would be interested in the plastic if it looked as good as the steel bar (Or at least close as possible to it). I know I would.

Also another possibility would be for someone to design some sort of bolt/clip on for the front of the bullbar that you could fit on for when your in city limits. Some thing that would absorb the impact of said pedestrian and prevent any serious injury.

Agree that most of the smart bars are ugly (the NS pajero one looks okay) and that's definitely a huge factor whether we like it or not (think of wearing a helmet or knee pads when you were biking/skateboarding as a kid, ugly & embarassing = no way!!!), likewise the unavailabilty for the 120 (which is probably unlikely to change, given the age = limited market) is obviously a problem. If ARB, TJM and Smartbar are competing to produce the best "plastic" bar, we'd probably get some pretty good looking ones quickly.

I wonder if the pedestrian airbag idea that keeps getting talked about could be adapted. If it was an easily replaced cartridge it might work, but the issue would be getting it to trigger before impact rather than launching an unrestrained pedestrian off with even more force...

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

About 200 pedestrians are killed/year, with considerable thousand injured. Most occur in cities and towns at speed limits 60kmh or less. It's completely reasonable for standards to require all vehicles to be as safe as possible.

Not sure whether your figures are accurate as i have not researched it, if they are, i wonder how many were killed by vehicles with bullbars and of those that were, how many may have had a better result if the vehicle didnt have a bullbar? I would think that the number would be fairly small! Without this sort of information this whole argument is fundamentally flawed as we have no way to know what the problem even is, let alone how much improvement we could expect.

As for vehicles being as "safe as possible" I see these sorts of comments as the problem with all safety arguments, for a vehicle to be as safe as possible it should be stationary and wrapped in cotton wool, preferably behind a locked gate. Vehicles should be as safe as "practical". 2-3 tonne vehicles or up to 68 tonne for a B double are never going to be as safe as possible. Everything in life is a compromise, the question is should banning bullbars as we know them be the right compromise? I think it is a politically driven solution to make it look like something is being done, because tackling the real issue is too hard. Driver training standards in this country are terrible, pedestrian attitudes to drivers are often poor, cyclists, don't get me started on them, and also Many drivers with poor skills added to poor attitudes, now find a way to tackle these issues and you would make a real difference. But making a law banning something that has minimal impact on the road toll, even without knowing the true statistics is much easier.


Cheers Andrew

[ntp Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close ntp]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Nuff said!!!

[williade Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close williade]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

As for vehicles being as "safe as possible" I see these sorts of comments as the problem with all safety arguments, for a vehicle to be as safe as possible it should be stationary and wrapped in cotton wool, preferably behind a locked gate. Vehicles should be as safe as "practical". 2-3 tonne vehicles or up to 68 tonne for a B double are never going to be as safe as possible. Everything in life is a compromise, the question is should banning bullbars as we know them be the right compromise? I think it is a politically driven solution to make it look like something is being done, because tackling the real issue is too hard. Driver training standards in this country are terrible, pedestrian attitudes to drivers are often poor, cyclists, don't get me started on them, and also Many drivers with poor skills added to poor attitudes, now find a way to tackle these issues and you would make a real difference. But making a law banning something that has minimal impact on the road toll, even without knowing the true statistics is much easier.

I take my hat off to you sir. Very elegantly put.

Where humans are involved, the only safe car is one in bubble wrap behind a gate.

Yes a Prado with a bullbar will hurt more than a Prado without, but a Prado of any sort will hurt more than a Prius, so where do you draw the line?

[Matty80 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Matty80]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

As for vehicles being as "safe as possible" I see these sorts of comments as the problem with all safety arguments, for a vehicle to be as safe as possible it should be stationary and wrapped in cotton wool, preferably behind a locked gate. Vehicles should be as safe as "practical". 2-3 tonne vehicles or up to 68 tonne for a B double are never going to be as safe as possible. Everything in life is a compromise, the question is should banning bullbars as we know them be the right compromise? I think it is a politically driven solution to make it look like something is being done, because tackling the real issue is too hard. Driver training standards in this country are terrible, pedestrian attitudes to drivers are often poor, cyclists, don't get me started on them, and also Many drivers with poor skills added to poor attitudes, now find a way to tackle these issues and you would make a real difference. But making a law banning something that has minimal impact on the road toll, even without knowing the true statistics is much easier.

I doubt anyone could have put that better!!! Well said...

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

What an interesting thread.

Gotta give it to the industry, they are very clever at wagging the dog.

The proposal would require the manufacturers to modify their designs to meet the standard.

And they can. They just dont want to because it costs money. If I was a manufacturer I would do the same. Somehow I dont think the Brown Brothers are struggling to eat 8)

I am no engineer but can easily see that you can have a bullbar that will mount a winch, give vehicle protection, increased entry clearance AND add pedestrian safety simply by a redesign that incorporates an external skin over a steel/alloy structure (similar to the poly that bumpers are made of) with a deformable core. Think an ARB sahara bar with an external skin. It will still meet all of the above requirements.

Remember the bull bars and air bags issue from 15 yrs ago. This is ground hog day. Same rubbish from the manufacturers - "Cant do it, too hard, people will be killed by giant kangaroos." And guess what? When it came down to the crunch they achieved it. The commercial reality is that it was worth investing the $$ to comply.

This one is far simpler.

To quote my old gaffa - "There pulling ya pud mate!"

[baldryk Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close baldryk]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Not sure whether your figures are accurate as i have not researched it, if they are, i wonder how many were killed by vehicles with bullbars and of those that were, how many may have had a better result if the vehicle didnt have a bullbar? I would think that the number would be fairly small! Without this sort of information this whole argument is fundamentally flawed as we have no way to know what the problem even is, let alone how much improvement we could expect.

As for vehicles being as "safe as possible" I see these sorts of comments as the problem with all safety arguments, for a vehicle to be as safe as possible it should be stationary and wrapped in cotton wool, preferably behind a locked gate. Vehicles should be as safe as "practical". 2-3 tonne vehicles or up to 68 tonne for a B double are never going to be as safe as possible. Everything in life is a compromise, the question is should banning bullbars as we know them be the right compromise? I think it is a politically driven solution to make it look like something is being done, because tackling the real issue is too hard. Driver training standards in this country are terrible, pedestrian attitudes to drivers are often poor, cyclists, don't get me started on them, and also Many drivers with poor skills added to poor attitudes, now find a way to tackle these issues and you would make a real difference. But making a law banning something that has minimal impact on the road toll, even without knowing the true statistics is much easier.

Fair points. I got the stats from http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... index.aspx but it certainly doesn't get into bullbar impact. That work must have been done somewhere though. I think that 4WDs account for about 15% of the total, but the key figure is the death or injury ratio per accident, ie the severity increased caused by non-friendly front ends.

Evidence based is important. Over the past 40 years the continual improvement in road stats has been through accumulated road safety measures (ANCAP, speed limits, RBTs, design standards...), so the important thing is to understand these and whether bullbar design (or prohibition) can contribute, and not dismiss it as 'the pedestrian's fault'. It's not all or nothing, and absolute safety is not being asked for.

But equally, we need to know how many lives and radiators have been saved by bullbars, in order to compare. "I absolutely need a massive square steel bullbar" is a statement usually made with as little evidence. One life is calculated by road authorities at $2m (I think). So the pedestrians killed by bullbars needs to be added up against the cost of front end repairs and lives lost through not having a bullbar. ETA: in fact compared against the cost of imposing pedestrian-friendly standards.

And as sharply put by tassie tiger, it's not banning Christmas; standards prompt manufacturers to give you what you want.

[photoprado Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close photoprado]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

This caught my eye today: http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-ne ... 19wye.html

Check the poll at the bottom. Its not just regulators or bull bars we need to be concerned about. Many people believe 4wd's are inappropriate in city streets.

[Prado887 Member Find all posts View Profile Close Prado887]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

A little extreme but has anyone seen the TV commercial where all the cars are inflatable ???
the way things are going it may not be joking :roll:

My barwork has saved me and my vehicle more times than I care to remember it is'nt going anywhere
Ryan

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

My barwork has saved me and my vehicle more times than I care to remember it is'nt going anywhere
Ryan

Psst Ryan - its for new cars - you can keep yours.

See folks - wag the dog :roll:

[Prado887 Member Find all posts View Profile Close Prado887]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

My barwork has saved me and my vehicle more times than I care to remember it is'nt going anywhere
Ryan

Psst Ryan - its for new cars - you can keep yours.

See folks - wag the dog :roll:

:lol: psst Cheers TT I should have been a little clearer on my comment. my current Bar isn't going anywhere , and with a new vehicle shortly in the works I would still argue to have a Bar on for where I travel to work, in the city/ heavily populated areas it is another question entirely and its not simply answerable by staying out of these places with these vehicles. there are a lot of Camry's commodores and Falcons getting round with either polybars or overbars in city areas as well as 4wds.

You can have a go at wagging my dog TT but he's a fat bugger :lol: :lol:
your old Gaffa has a pretty good point as well

Ryan

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

My barwork has saved me and my vehicle more times than I care to remember it is'nt going anywhere
Ryan

Psst Ryan - its for new cars - you can keep yours.

See folks - wag the dog :roll:

:lol: psst Cheers TT I should have been a little clearer on my comment. my current Bar isn't going anywhere , and with a new vehicle shortly in the works I would still argue to have a Bar on for where I travel to work, in the city/ heavily populated areas it is another question entirely and its not simply answerable by staying out of these places with these vehicles. there are a lot of Camry's commodores and Falcons getting round with either polybars or overbars in city areas as well as 4wds.

You can have a go at wagging my dog TT but he's a fat bugger :lol: :lol:
your old Gaffa has a pretty good point as well

Ryan

Hi Ryan

I actually logged back in thinking my post might have inferred you were a dog. :shock: And just maybe were about to jump on the ferry sth to hand out some whip ass!

Thanks for taking it in the fun intended.

cheers

[big-trev Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close big-trev]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeees this opened up a BIG Can of worms.I said this would happen about Six months ago when the Pedestrian was hit In Adelaide.This one incident started the BullBar wagon rolling again.And on the question about 4wdrives being banned from the city limits,What would all of the Mothers do when they can't drive there Toorac Tractors to drop the Kids off to school.Any way walk out in front of me and you will suffer the consiquences,Pedestrians think that they have wright of way some times I'm sure.And the Cyclists,I use to be one of these,If you abay the rules and stay in the bike lane and at single abreast you should not have an incident. And as with any means of road use, you always have to have your'e witts about you.Dont live in the dream world like so many out there.