Bull Bars Under Threat

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

The point is, if said vehicle is wearing a bull bar, our pedestrian will likely suffer significantly more damage regardless of fault.

I am not sure this is correct. Variables will depend on: (1) size of person (2) size of vehicle (3) speed of vehicle (4) direction of vehicle (5) direction of person (7) age of person, just to cite a few.

Many pedestrians also get hit by trains - but you don't see Government moves being made to soften the front-ends of locomotives!

A smart car travelling at 80kph will just as easily injure a pedestrian as a car with a bull bar. Only difference is, both passengers in the smart car are also likely to be injured whereas those in the vehicle with the bull bar will probably survive uninjured.

This is a non-sense argument based on unscientific evidence and usually promoted by the Pedestrian Council whose membership, values and actual purpose needs to be seriously questioned.

Hi NT

Through my last job I had a lot to do with road safety and still have an interest in it. My 4wds always had bullbars until recently when I changed my mind about them based on observations and study to do with the job.

Here is a good link by the centre for automotive safety research on behalf of the Motor Accident Commission of SA;

http://casr.adelaide.edu.au/reports/CASR020.pdf

There is a fair bit in there but worth a read.

cheers

Tassie (debating politely )

[mudboy Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mudboy]

Bull Bars Under Threat

I have had 4 wheel drives for my last 3 cars first one no bar and I always said after that one all my future 4 wheel drives must have a bar

I do use my 4 wheel drives off road and the one without a bar did end up with more damage on it

The bar does protect front of car on rocks, etc and I know has saved me a couple of times

Then I need winch, spot lights and UHF antenna

I may be selfish so be it

[ntp Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close ntp]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Through my last job I had a lot to do with road safety and still have an interest in it. My 4wds always had bullbars until recently when I changed my mind about them based on observations and study to do with the job.

I think have a pretty good understanding of road safety and human behaviour and know one thing for sure. So long as vehicles are controlled by humans there will always be crashes. You can't expect the state to provide controls, barriers and cotton wool around life otherwise they'll next want to legislate that pedestrians should compulsorily wear helmets and body armour (in case of a crash). Life - its a risky business.

And to quote the report you referenced:

Proportion of car occupant and pedestrian fatalities that are pedestrians, by age, from 1/1/1989 to 31/10/2005
The extent to which bull bars are involved in pedestrian collisions and injury is not clear from readily available data. In 1996, the Federal Office of Road Safety estimated that bull bars were involved in 12% of fatal pedestrian collisions but may be involved in as many as 20% (FORS, 1996), although it is not clear how the latter estimate was arrived at, nor whether these figures represent an increased risk of death due to the presence of the bull bar. More recently Attewell and Glase (2000) used Australian crash data to try and estimate the effect of bull bars on fatality statistics. They were not able to draw firm conclusions due to the incompleteness on the bull bar status of vehicles in their fatality database. Furthermore, there were (and are) few data on bull bar fitment rates, and that made it difficult to estimate risks associated with bull bar fitment. Mandatory reporting of bull bar fitment would facilitate the estimation of relative risks of injury and death associated with bull bars.

In summary, yowie has hit the nail on the head:

While it is not good for a pedestrian to be hit by a bullbar on a vehicle, if you have a need for a bullbar, then fit one to your vehicle. If you don't need one, don't fit one to your vehicle, and don't tell other drivers what they can and cannot do!

[photoprado Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close photoprado]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

The point is, if said vehicle is wearing a bull bar, our pedestrian will likely suffer significantly more damage regardless of fault.

I am not sure this is correct. Variables will depend on: (1) size of person (2) size of vehicle (3) speed of vehicle (4) direction of vehicle (5) direction of person (7) age of person, just to cite a few.

Many pedestrians also get hit by trains - but you don't see Government moves being made to soften the front-ends of locomotives!

A smart car travelling at 80kph will just as easily injure a pedestrian as a car with a bull bar. Only difference is, both passengers in the smart car are also likely to be injured whereas those in the vehicle with the bull bar will probably survive uninjured.

This is a non-sense argument based on unscientific evidence and usually promoted by the Pedestrian Council whose membership, values and actual purpose needs to be seriously questioned.

1. Metro area speed we are talking about - 0 to 50/60kph

2. Pedestrians do not routinely share space with trains. When they do, it is controlled with gates and warning signs.

3. At 80kph we are getting into academic differences. Below 60kph, vehicles are designed with heights and pedestrian friendly impact characteristics.

5. This is not unscientific evidence, this is the result of manufacturer designing and testing of their vehicles with pedestrian impacts. Pedestrians are a fact of life for vehicles in metro areas. It is unscientific to criticise the impact of bull bars on pedestrians in metro areas using 80kph+ speeds as the speed.

6. I have never heard of 'the pedestrian council' I have observed vehicle manufacturers making their products more friendly to pedestrians, something that a bull bar negates completely because it does not flex or manage a pedestrian impact as the vehicle manufacturer intended.

Michael

[Dakkas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dakkas]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

6. I have never heard of 'the pedestrian council' I have observed vehicle manufacturers making their products more friendly to pedestrians, something that a bull bar negates completely because it does not flex or manage a pedestrian impact as the vehicle manufacturer intended.

Very true, plus steel is much harder than a plastic bumper. With this in mind, a collision with a pedestrian at 30-60kph, you are the pedestrian - which would you rather be hit with? A car with a bullbar or a stock standard car with a plastic bumper? lets see if anyone wants to answer this one honestly....

[MickL Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close MickL]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

I have never heard of 'the pedestrian council'

You probably have without realising... they are behind most road safety initiatives;


Pedestrian Council of Australia

Mick

[yowie Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close yowie]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Another thing to consider if you don't want to have cars fitted with bullbars in the city, where do you store the bullbars? Do you have a storage shed on the city fringe, where you stop, take your bullbar off and fit a normal bumper bar, pay to store the bullbar in the shed, then re-fit it on the way out of town? Some of you may think this is a strange comment, but this is what is wanted by some non-4WDrivers.

1. How is this different to some of the other big bulky accesories that we can add and remove eg rooftop tents, roof rack etc. If the bar had an easy removal mechanism would it take up that much room in your shed?
2. Is the situation you describe above preferable to nothing at all?

Lionel,
If a attach a bullbar to my Prado, which I will be doing, it will be staying on, and not being removed because I have driven back to the city!

What happens with other vehicles that have front bars, such as work utes, work vans, Mack trucks, normal sedans? Will they be given the same considerations as 4WD's?

Excluding the Mack truck, yes, the original post/survey is about light vehicles which interact with pedestrians/cyclists, so any rules/bans/exclusion zones would apply equally to all

Lionel,
You made an exception, i.e. the Mack truck. It's one in, all in, or none at all.

but if it was a 4wd you hear about it for days.

Yep, and it gets up my nose too!

It's quite obvious there are different opinions about the fitting of bullbars, people are entitled to their opinions, and I will be fitting one because of where I will be driving.
Yowie.

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Obviously I would rather a plastic bar. Most areas now are been changed to 40k zones in main street shopping malls. Here in Penrith NSW two main streets are now 40k, then there is some what they call a shared zone which is 10k, I had a pantek in front of me only on the weekend, there was a bloke on his pushbike with helmet etc on looking straight ahead stopped with his front wheel pointed out towards the road with his ipod earphones one half dangling down the other half in his ear with his mobile phone in his other hand planted on his other ear and a pantek going to turn left right where he was and wasnt until the truck driver bipped his horn did this clown think about moving, had the bike decided just to pull out the truck would have wiped him out, had the truck driver hit him he probably would have been the one in trouble. Kids will be kids and especially younger ones dont think of whats going on around them and are unpredictable so I have no issues with 40k zones around schools, but some people need to take blame for their own actions instead of blaming everyone else, bit like the clubs and drinking patrons, cant handle your grog DONT DRINK, What happened to ""look left,look right, look left then if safe cross the road, that was drummed into me when I was young and still do it now, without a phone planted on my ear or an ipod blaring in my ears oblivious of whats going on around me. Bullbar, no bullbar if you walk out in front of any vehicle with or with out bullbars at a rough guess 80/100k your going to more then likely die. I see it everyday people just stroll out in front of cars,motor bikes, postie bikes what ever with out looking and some people have this thought that they have right away anywhere anytime. Also the bar has saved numerous amounts of damage to the front of my 4wd's over the years from people who cant reverse for crap and end up tapping the bar, even had one on my last prado who decided to hit reverse after placing an order in the macca's drive through because they forgot to order some thing and just come straight back at me, smashed his rear lights and dented his bootlid, did nothing to mine thanks to the bar> Regards Steve M

6. I have never heard of 'the pedestrian council' I have observed vehicle manufacturers making their products more friendly to pedestrians, something that a bull bar negates completely because it does not flex or manage a pedestrian impact as the vehicle manufacturer intended.

Very true, plus steel is much harder than a plastic bumper. With this in mind, a collision with a pedestrian at 30-60kph, you are the pedestrian - which would you rather be hit with? A car with a bullbar or a stock standard car with a plastic bumper? lets see if anyone wants to answer this one honestly....

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Through my last job I had a lot to do with road safety and still have an interest in it. My 4wds always had bullbars until recently when I changed my mind about them based on observations and study to do with the job.

I think have a pretty good understanding of road safety and human behaviour and know one thing for sure. So long as vehicles are controlled by humans there will always be crashes. You can't expect the state to provide controls, barriers and cotton wool around life otherwise they'll next want to legislate that pedestrians should compulsorily wear helmets and body armour (in case of a crash). Life - its a risky business.

And to quote the report you referenced:

Proportion of car occupant and pedestrian fatalities that are pedestrians, by age, from 1/1/1989 to 31/10/2005
The extent to which bull bars are involved in pedestrian collisions and injury is not clear from readily available data. In 1996, the Federal Office of Road Safety estimated that bull bars were involved in 12% of fatal pedestrian collisions but may be involved in as many as 20% (FORS, 1996), although it is not clear how the latter estimate was arrived at, nor whether these figures represent an increased risk of death due to the presence of the bull bar. More recently Attewell and Glase (2000) used Australian crash data to try and estimate the effect of bull bars on fatality statistics. They were not able to draw firm conclusions due to the incompleteness on the bull bar status of vehicles in their fatality database. Furthermore, there were (and are) few data on bull bar fitment rates, and that made it difficult to estimate risks associated with bull bar fitment. Mandatory reporting of bull bar fitment would facilitate the estimation of relative risks of injury and death associated with bull bars.

In summary, yowie has hit the nail on the head:

While it is not good for a pedestrian to be hit by a bullbar on a vehicle, if you have a need for a bullbar, then fit one to your vehicle. If you don't need one, don't fit one to your vehicle, and don't tell other drivers what they can and cannot do!

You forgot to quote this bit;

6 Discussion
The results of the tests performed in this study support the view that bull bars increase the
risk of injury to pedestrians. However, polymer bull bars of the type tested here are, in some
tests, less aggressive to a pedestrian than the front of the vehicle that they are designed to
protect

I linked the report because it is good and honest. Not a pedestrian council the worlds gunna fall in, nor the Bullbars Save lives crap.

If read as a whole, as all research papers should, not jerry picked, then it is supportive of change. What is interesting is the fact that most of the 4wds rate poorly in impact as well, particularly the 100series, which I thought was good.

cheers

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Photoprado wrote
2. Pedestrians do not routinely share space with trains. When they do, it is controlled with gates and warning signs.

I personally have seen 2 pedestians killed by being hit by trains!

I have never seen any pedestrians killed by a bullbar!

I realize the above statements don't nescesarily reflect the overall picture, but that is my personal experience.

Between me and my wife we have hit 6 Kangaroos, 5 in cars and once on my motorbike. The 1 time we had a bullbar, it was an aluminium job on a Rodeo 4WD, MY WIFE (i was the passenger) hit a huge roo at 100kms /hr. the Rodeo suffered a large amount of damage but importantly, she never lost control of the vehicle and despite the damage we were able to continue on our trip (got some funny looks from the valet parker at the Hyatt when we arrived). The camry with no bullbar didn't fare so well, with a very small roo.

As Ntprce quoted above, the facts on whether bullbars are overrepresented in pedestrian deaths and casualties isnt clear. There seems to be an attitude from the authorities that any deaths or injuries on our roads are to many, while this may be commendable it is not realistic, as stated before life is dangerous!


Cheers Andrew

[photoprado Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close photoprado]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

I have never heard of 'the pedestrian council'

You probably have without realising... they are behind most road safety initiatives;


Pedestrian Council of Australia

Mick

Maybe, but very few manufacturers build and design specifically for Australia. We generally get euro spec, a few years behind europe with minor mods to suit any of our specific ADR's. We follow major safety advances, not initiate them. Perhaps the pedestrian council may be aware of advances and lobby for them to be included here. Its not that long ago that electronic stability control was a luxury on Aussie cars when it was mandatory elsewhere.

The vehicle manufacturers and the markets in the rest of the world have been testing pedestrian safety for some time, and cars are rated for pedestrian safety. For example Euro NCAP Toyota Prius (this is just an example, I'm no fan of the Prius) Similar attention to pedestrian safety is being taken by all major vehicle manufacturers.

Local Aussie dealer's spiel about the Prius pedestrian impact friendlyness here: Youtube: Clintons Toyota Prius Pedestrian Safety

Pedestrian safety is being tested by ANCAP in Australia along with the general crash safety of the vehicle. Here is the Prado 150 GX test report It gets 'Marginal' for pedestrian safety whilst the overall score is 5 stars. I wonder what the score would be with a nice steel bar up front?

Vehicle safety is not going to stop improving. As our cities become more and more crowded and congested, cars with bull bars are going to look more and more out of place. Our regulators live and work in those cities...

And no, I'm not telling anyone what they can or can not do, if you want a bull bar, go for it. I'm pointing out realities that are very difficult to see from behind the wheel of a nice, comfortable and capable 4WD. We can fight, but ultimately the regulators will regulate. They have already regulated for the backward leaning top bars we have today and you can bet there is more to come.

Michael

[FlyNdrive Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close FlyNdrive]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

To everyone who is calling for stricter bull bar laws in light of the tragedy in the crosswalks, may I offer this little tidbit: If bull bars kill pedestrians, then pencils misspell words, cars drive drunk, and spoons made Oprah fat! Remember: Hold the PEDESTRIAN accountable for their actions and keep laws off my front bumper!!!

[croozza Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close croozza]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Those smart bars are crap, why have a bull bar on if it will still allow damage to the vehicle, lets look at your example, they still had damage after hitting the roo, I have hit a very large roo with a steel bullbar, this was in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere, and I had no damage to the vehicle, this saved me being stranded in the middle of nowhere.

Firstly, they were doing 150kph - you'd have to expect some damage would you not? What do you think would have happened if they had a steel bar? I'd imagine they would have been stranded with a twisted chassis and messed up front. With the smart bar they were still mobile, and the damage only minor - also I realised by typo - the plastic lining of the wheels guards come loose - nothing more.

I have also hit a medium sized roo with an ARB steel bar - the bar itself bent, it was pushed back, twisting the chassis, piercing the radiator and popping both front tyres. The bar caused me to be stranded in the middle of nowhere and caused significantly more damage than if the vehicle was standard. Straight from the words of both panel beater and insurance assessor.

No bullbar will prevent all damage to a vehicle - unless you're lucky. The reality is no matter what bar you have, you are extremely likely to sustain some type of damage whether it be a busted light, small dent or whatever. The smartbar does a bloody fine job of preventing damage - moreso than a steel bar.

One thig you need to know about smart bars, is that you can not fit a winch to them, these two simple things (steel bullbar and winch) can be your life saver in the bush.

Incorrect. You can fit winches to them.

The had little damage because of the speed they were doing and they would have hit it mid bounce.

Never believe the word of a insurance company or panel beater, they are only one step above car salesmen.

I have seen many scientific tests on bull bars and the steel bar out performs the other bars in protecting the vehicle and therefore the occupants, The plastic smart bar was the worst, reason being it flexes too much, allowing the obstuction to hit the vehicle, this causes damage to the vehicle, then the bar returns to its correct form, so your bull bar will survive but not the car, I would have loved to have seen your car after hitting the roo if you had a smart bar, I bet my left nut, that you would have had alot mor damage to the vehicle and possably to you.

Yes and no on the winch actually, you can fit a winch, but you shouldn't, as the bar flexes too much allowing the winch to flex and break.

Another thing with a steel bar, I had a head on with some wanker that was cutting corners on the way to O'Rielleys (in the gold coast hinterland), this is a very windy road, I saw him coming and stopped, but he couldn't, we hit, so I backed back down off of his bonnet, looked at the front of my vehicle, no damage, looked at his again, write off. He had no insurance either. I had the vehicle checked out, found no damage.
So you cannot say a steel bull bar will twist or bend chassis.

[Dakkas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dakkas]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

The had little damage because of the speed they were doing and they would have hit it mid bounce..

You're kidding right? Such a high speed is the reason why there was minimal damage? The impact would have been phenominal.

Never believe the word of a insurance company or panel beater, they are only one step above car salesmen.

Didn't you just say below you have your vehicle checked after a prang? But you just aid "never believe the word of an insurance company or panel beater". Surely what they have to say is somewhat credibe. To say that a steel bullbar wouldn't cause more damage would be ignorant. I've seen it with my own two eyes.

I have seen many scientific tests on bull bars and the steel bar out performs the other bars in protecting the vehicle and therefore the occupants, .

Perhaps you'd like to point out where this was? There has been many "scientific tests" on smart bars that prove it to offer better vehicle protection and protection of it's occupants - not only in wildlife strikes but motor vehicle accidents aswell.

The plastic smart bar was the worst, reason being it flexes too much, allowing the obstuction to hit the vehicle, this causes damage to the vehicle, then the bar returns to its correct form, so your bull bar will survive but not the car, .

With respect, this just shows your ignorance - this is not the case at all. Go up and grab a smart bar and try and bend it - you won't be able to because they are quite solid. They require a decent impact before they'll move - and once they do they'll only move to an extent (which is minimal) where they actually become firm and wont move anymore - they certainly don't flex back into your vehicle. On this same note, steel bar's move, they shake around and have a small amount of "give", also as per my previous post/s - I had an ARB steel bar roll back into the vehicle and pierce the radiator, pop both tyres and twist the chassis amongst other things. The bar itself actually bent. A smart bar would have kept me mobile in the same situation.

I would have loved to have seen your car after hitting the roo if you had a smart bar, I bet my left nut, that you would have had alot mor damage to the vehicle and possably to you.

I've hit a few over the years in a vehicle with a smart bar. Not anything to skite about, they were all average size roo's and I was only doing around 80kph on impact - so not exactly the high end of the spectrum, but realistic driving all the same. Never any damage.

Yes and no on the winch actually, you can fit a winch, but you shouldn't, as the bar flexes too much allowing the winch to flex and break..

Again that's incorrect. Have a look at the metal bracket that winches are fitted to. There is no flex whatsoever when winching.

Another thing with a steel bar, I had a head on with some wanker that was cutting corners on the way to O'Rielleys (in the gold coast hinterland), this is a very windy road, I saw him coming and stopped, but he couldn't, we hit, so I backed back down off of his bonnet, looked at the front of my vehicle, no damage, looked at his again, write off. He had no insurance either. I had the vehicle checked out, found no damage.
So you cannot say a steel bull bar will twist or bend chassis.

If what you say is 100% true - then that is nothing more than luck. How do you know a smartbar would have been any different? Again to say a steel bullbar won't bent or twist your chassis is very ignorant. It can and does happen.

At the end of the day you believe what you want to, I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just presenting the real-life facts. You're obviously a "steel is the only way to go" man and haven't accepted that newer technology is out there and does the same, if not better job than older materials such as steel.

I was once like you though, I thought steel was the bee's knee's, and thought the smartbars were rubbish. I got a new work vehicle that had a smart bar and I was a convert after actually driving with one fitted one myself and seeing the real life effectiveness of it - so I think my comments are a little more credible than "I've seen scientific tests......"

[Dakkas Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dakkas]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Remember: Hold the PEDESTRIAN accountable for their actions and keep laws off my front bumper!!!

This is the attitude that gives the 4x4 community a very bad image.

FlyNdrive,
Regarding these pedestrians which you so insensitively say need to be accountable for their actions etc - stop and bare a thought as to who these pedestrians are - it's you and me, our families and friends. We are pedestrians more than we are drivers. Also, Just because a pedestrian is hit doesn't mean they are necessarily at fault.

Besides, how would you feel if you actually hit and killed somone - particularly a kid - whether it was their fault or not. Imagine sitting in coroners court and listening to the fact that the bullbar on the front of your car was the main cause of death because the bullbar busted the kids skull like a flat soccerball. People often cling to the arguement "if they get hit, they'll be killed anyway whether there is a bullbar or not", well as I said in a previous post - metal is much harder than a plastic bumper - a collision with a pedestrian at 30-60kph, you are the pedestrian - which would you rather be hit with? A car with a bullbar or a stock standard car with a plastic bumper? lets see if anyone wants to answer this one honestly.... (no one has yet).