Bull Bars Under Threat

[baldryk Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close baldryk]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

And the Cyclists,I use to be one of these,If you abay the rules and stay in the bike lane and at single abreast you should not have an incident.

Stats and evidence rather than individual anecdotes are required to make good policy, but...

A couple of months ago I was knocked off my bicycle. In a cycle lane, clear sunny day, Toyota Yaris turned into me. I rolled off the bonnet onto the road with a dented front wheel but hardly a bruise.

Very happy to be hit by an EU standard complying front end rather than a steel bullbar.

[Matty80 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Matty80]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

In a cycle lane, clear sunny day, Toyota Yaris turned into me.

Sounds like everyone was doing what they were supposed to be doing except for the Yaris driver???

No intent to talk down what could have been quite severe for you baldryk, and yes much better to be hit by a EU standard car than a bullbar as you state... But your in effect saying that it is better to be hit by an EU standard car than an AU standard car (whereby "standard" used to define the regulations not whether modified or not) - would it be better to not be hit at all because the driver was doing the correct thing also?

This being that everyone follows the road rules, everyone uses common sense and givesway as appropriate?

The bullbars fitted to "most" cars are compliant with vehicle design and comply with the ADR - thus making them AU standard. Why then should the incorrect use of a road vehicle by a select few, or the lapses in attention of the few, or the lack of descency of the few really be taken out on another and often separate select minority of users that wish to modify their own vechicles to better suit their own requirements?

I agree that bullbars are extremely visible objects that preject from the front of a generally large car (of 2 tonne or upwards) and when seen from a pedestrial, cyclist, or small car user they can be intimidating and seemily unnecessary - however, one must also look at the uses of the vehicle, the places that a vehicle with such an accessory will be seen, the levels of protection these accessories give to the occupants of the vehicles in these situations...

I doubt that the soccer mum, with 3 kids that drives to school and back in her SUV will have a bullbar fitted (that being that my car is frequently seen dropping the kids at school - but also seen off the beaten track - I have only one car)... Unlikely, that a many of the modifications to these larger cars is ever seen on the "shopping trolley" type vehicle...

In summary I could only say that there is possibly room for improvement, but in the end, the benefit to the users of the offroad vehicle will always benefit from the bullbar in some way at some point more often than not - be it a kangaroo, a snatch recovery, hi-lift jacking, random tree during a slippery downhill decent or other often encountered obsticle found in the offroad environment...


Maybe SNAP-ON Tools and ARB can get together for a design meeting in the near future and come up with something to suit everyone? (Couldn't help it... )

Matt

[croozza Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close croozza]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Good to hear that your ok Baldryk, I bet this Yaris driver was on the phone at the time.
I think I need to add this point for everyone (maybe a can of worms)
Last I knew, that the vehicles we have in australia are made to Australian Standards, NOT Euro standards, so why on earth are we getting these Euro policies/rulings pushed into our faces.
I have looked into this ban the bull bar thing, and it goes back as far as 2002, with no success, so is this just old news raising its head again, as they still can not give any scientific proof that a person will be killed buy a bull bar on a vehicle but survive if the same vehicle did not have a bull bar.

On a sad note, a 17 month old was killed today by a vehicle being backed out of the driveway by the father.
However, I did notice there was no mention of what type of vehicle it was, I bet if it was a 4wd and even worse if it had a bull bar, eventhough it was the rear of the vehicle, it would be over the news like it was a the only story. I could say much more about this but I wont.

[dereki Member Find all posts View Profile Close dereki]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

From the ADR website.

Harmonisation

The Australian Government's policy is to harmonise the national vehicle safety standards with international regulations where possible and consideration is given to the adoption of the international regulations of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE). Australia is a signatory to the UNECE 1958 Agreement and the 1998 Agreement. The policy to harmonise is also important to fulfil World Trade Organisation and Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation commitments.

In other words... we have to.

[croozza Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close croozza]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

From the ADR website.

Harmonisation

The Australian Government's policy is to harmonise the national vehicle safety standards with international regulations where possible and consideration is given to the adoption of the international regulations of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE). Australia is a signatory to the UNECE 1958 Agreement and the 1998 Agreement. The policy to harmonise is also important to fulfil World Trade Organisation and Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation commitments.

In other words... we have to.

They are talking about vehicle safety standards, what the ban the bullbar crap is about is pedestrian safety, two totally different things.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

If what eventuatues is that bullbars can only be fitted to 4x4 and 4x4 utility vehicles, then there is no issue. I personally don't see the need for commodores etc to have bars fitted (and I've seen quite a few). I also don't think SUVs (AWDs) should be permitted to carry a bullbar. It just isn't necessary. So Klugers etc would be out. If you want the protection, and be allowed to have a bull bar, then buy a real 4x4. This is assuming that they go with the plan to limit them to vehicle types. Of course, the rural / metro use restriction would be impossible to police and totally stupid. Am I supposed to not have a bull bar metro, but then when I go touring for a few weeks, get my bullbar fitted, and subsequently removed after??? It just won't work.

Sorry Ian but i don't really follow the logic here :? I am yet to see a kangaroo check if the car it jumps in front of is a 4x4 or a commodore, the two times my wife nearly totalled our camry due to kangaroo strikes a bullbar would have been real handy. She now drives a RAV and i would have fitted a bullbar by now if one was available!
It doesn't matter what you drive, its where you drive it that matters.

Cheers Andrew

[Matty80 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Matty80]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

On a sad note, a 17 month old was killed today by a vehicle being backed out of the driveway by the father.
However, I did notice there was no mention of what type of vehicle it was, I bet if it was a 4wd and even worse if it had a bull bar, eventhough it was the rear of the vehicle, it would be over the news like it was a the only story. I could say much more about this but I wont.

A very sad story, and very distressing for friends and family - another hapless victim in a very preventable incident... !
They did however mention Toyota Camry in the MSN story I read... So no bullbar, that I know of, they didn't mention that.

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Thanks to everyone for the robust discussion.

I dont think anyone is completely right or wrong on this one.

Lets hope it turns out good in the end for us all.

Cheers and see you in the bush!

[TimA Member Find all posts View Profile Close TimA]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

4wd action are getting into the picture now. They have a form to fill out which is e-mailed to the minister. If you want to stop it, you have to tell them.

http://takeaction.4wdaction.com.au/?q=node/2

Hope the link works

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

First they came for my guns. Now I have more than before the buyback and am faster at re-loading thanks to the 10 round magazines.

Now they want my bullbar. Right. No way will there be a bullbar buyback. At the most, they will phase in a gradual change especially so the truckies have sufficient time to comply. Just like buses and seatbelts - there's still thousands of buses and coaches out there without passenger seatbelts. The government decided that as buses were replaced with new vehicles that would suffice to get the belts into them without forcing people to spend thousands to retro-fit.

Somebody banned 5 poster bullbars around 5 or so years ago but you still see the cowboys with the big bars hanging off their Bundy and RM Williams emblazoned utes. Who really cares? Who is going to enforce it?

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

Now they want my bullbar. Right.

Its that the wiggles in the background - I think it is. What are they singing. There getting closer. I can hear it. Closer

Its wags the dog

Its wags the dog

Here he comes, its wags the dog.

Sing it again, its wags the dog

Its wags the dog
8)

[Justo Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Justo]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

There is a fine line between safety and stupidity! Where do you draw the line between the two? Ask me the question of which car I would rather be hit by at 30-60km.... my answer is neither...they both going to cause serious damage.!!! :roll:
Whether it be a bus, train or pushbike its still going to cause injury or possibly even death. Avoidance is better than a cure, but the only way to avoid any pedestrian injury occurrence is to isolate them from totally from moving vehicles which I believe all would agree is near impossible to do. The only way to prevent is awareness of your surroundings and driving/walking to suit. There will always be accidents, but I believe the focus should be on minimising these incidents rather than trying to remove an object from a vehicle that only makes a slight difference to the overall result from a "possible" incident.
I agree there is no real need for bullbars in city streets especially on vehicles that never leave those streets but there is also no need to over police every form of freedom we have when there is no decent cause for it.
I have bullbars on 3 of my vehicles and numerous times they have saved me from claiming on my insurance for repairs caused by other road users, I drive this city/suburbs with occaisional rural for a living and no pedestrian has even come close to kissing them so to me they are worth every dollar they cost me. If I hit someone with my truck I seriously doubt there would be much difference between having a bullbar or not, do you ban all commercial vehicles on the basis they are more dangerous to pedestrians than cars?
And lastly I would like to point out that some figures given earlier in the thread quoted that the Federal Office of Road Safety estimated that bull bars were involved in 12% of fatal pedestrian collisions but may be involved in as many as 20% (FORS, 1996), although it is not clear how the latter estimate was arrived at, nor whether these figures represent an increased risk of death due to the presence of the bull bar.
Doesn't this speak for itself? There is no denying a steel bullbar will inflict greater injury than a plastic bumper, it doesn't take a genius to recognise the obvious but seriously how many of these 12% estimated were fatal solely because of the bullbar? I wouldn't mind betting it would a long way short of half that figure. This 12% no doubt includes commercial vehicles which having a bullbar or not would obviously have less influence on it being fatal or not.

Oh and if we are following Euro regulations, how about we have the same 120km and open limit freeways and autobahns...?? How about booking these wanks that speed up to block out merging traffic instead of pinging some poor sod that was doing 6km over in a 100k zone!! Maybe they really should take more of a look at Euro policing and driving habits rather than their "Bullbar Regulations"

Just my 2 cents

[Melbo Member Find all posts View Profile Close Melbo]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

An article in "The Age" ... a nice read

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/ban-t ... 1a8ge.html

[babs Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close babs]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

First they came for my guns. Now I have more than before the buyback and am faster at re-loading thanks to the 10 round magazines.

Now they want my bullbar. Right. No way will there be a bullbar buyback. At the most, they will phase in a gradual change especially so the truckies have sufficient time to comply. Just like buses and seatbelts - there's still thousands of buses and coaches out there without passenger seatbelts. The government decided that as buses were replaced with new vehicles that would suffice to get the belts into them without forcing people to spend thousands to retro-fit.

Somebody banned 5 poster bullbars around 5 or so years ago but you still see the cowboys with the big bars hanging off their Bundy and RM Williams emblazoned utes. Who really cares? Who is going to enforce it?

Perhaps we could mount our guns on our bullbars!!!!!!!!!!!!! that would fix the pedestrian problem....

but seriously when was the last time you saw a roo or a 80kg pig in the middle of the road complying with EU standards. Hopefully the Yaris has a 5 post steel bar option available. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[tassie tiger Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close tassie tiger]

Re: Bull Bars Under Threat

There is a fine line between safety and stupidity! Where do you draw the line between the two? Ask me the question of which car I would rather be hit by at 30-60km.... my answer is neither...they both going to cause serious damage.!!! :roll:

Hi Justo

You would be surprised at just how survivable being hit by modern cars at urban speeds is. Lots of bruises, a broken bone or so but amazingly survivable. Where is the line? I think the line is somewhere in the middle of where we are now and where we could be.

But you see when you are a young person, an elderly person, a drunk person or the unlucky sod hit by the vehicle running the red or not watching the crossing, you dont get to ask the question of which car will hit you. That decision is out of your control.

cheers