120 Series - Standard recovery points?

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Thats a bad design by ARB, would have thought they had rated recovery hooks built into the bar that would be of some purpose and having to modify a $1500+ bar is crazy. And I thought ARB after market was the ducks guts of after market equipment, wont be long it will also be coming from China......if not already ??? Cheers steve

I suspect they are scared of litigation if something breaks in a recovery situation. I don't see why they couldn't have made them beefier but still called them tow points though.

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

I reckon your right there Trekrider, no one wants to take responsability these days incase some one sues them, which I can totally understand, christ you can get sued by some one breaking into your house then cut them selves on the window they broke to come in !!! If I cought em I'd make it worthwhile, Id be dragging them back out myself over the glass they just broke getting in then give em the flogging of their life (self defence) Im sure............Cheers Steve

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

I reckon your right there Trekrider, no one wants to take responsability these days incase some one sues them, which I can totally understand, christ you can get sued by some one breaking into your house then cut them selves on the window they broke to come in !!! If I cought em I'd make it worthwhile, Id be dragging them back out myself over the glass they just broke getting in then give em the flogging of their life (self defence) Im sure............Cheers Steve

You're right there Steve, the care bears have taken over for sure.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

I could understand fitting after market ones if I had these as there would be a fair amount of stress on these welds but the later ones, totally different setup, as you know going write through and welded from behind as well. As asked in previous post, whats stronger, 2 obviously high tensile bolts or the weld thats on the factory points ?? Hope there is an engineer that may be able to shed some light on the issue........Cheers Steve

This has been covered heaps of times before but here we go again........ I am not an engineer but I have been known to weld the odd piece of steel together every once in a while. I also used to work as a welder in a car factory, welding chassis up and teaching people to weld.

NO 2 WELDS ARE THE SAME Thats the crux of the issue, yes the welds on the one in the video might have been strong enough, the welds on your Prado might be strong enough, but your mates might not be, and there is no real way to tell.

When I used to teach people how to weld in the factory we would get a new bloke start and I would ask him "have you done any welding before" a common response was "whats welding" no shit, people were being employed as welders who didn't even know what welding was. So I would take them over to someones brand new car that was on the production line and get them to start welding.

What if a guys first time ever using a welder was to weld up your "recovery points" Thats why people say don't use them and don't come on a trip unless you have something better, bolts are made to a standard, the recovery point itself is a solid piece of steel so the characteristics are not likely to change, unlike a weld that can be brilliant or totally crap depending on the operator. I know a lot of welding in factories are done by robot which should help, but in my experience robot welding is more unreliable than a human.


Cheers Andrew

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

I wouldnt know a good weld from a bad one except if its not straight lol. I would have no idea. I hear people talk about weld splatter (which I had everywhere on my camper) and if its too high in power will blow a hole through it lol and you have to wear a dark welding mask or shut your eyes really quickly lol but honestly wouldnt have a clue........ Not sure who, where will I get the recovery points fitted but most clubs, wether PP or some one else require correct recovery points/hooks fitted before you can join them. Had 2 on each of the 95's I had but was easy to fit, obviously the 120 a bit more fiddling around. Do you know Andrew with the recovery hooks like the red ones in previous post do they have anything to go between chassis rails ?? I cant see how these would be any better if your trying to tighten the bolts to correct torque and the rails start pulling together which I read some where on PP a while back before I got the 120 before you got the right torque settings ?? I imagne if this was to happen would imagine the integrity of the chassis rails would be questioned and then would this become a defect if it was to be picked up on some sort of inspection ??,.........Cheers Steve

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

I agree that the way those points (bolt on loop style) are attached leaves a bit to be desired, the bottom bolt is OK as there is a welded nut inside the chassis, the top bolt goes through the hollow chassis which is not the best for correct tensioning. There is a way to overcome this, have a look at post #156 in my rig build, although I am using this method for my custom made "recovery points" for the ARB bar I used exactly the same system on Both Prados I have owned with the soverign bar.

This method of fitting the recovery points was what my very first post on PP was about, in fact it was the reason I joined.

Another thing for people to think about, What you think about the suitability of the factory loops for recovery purposes really doesn't matter at all. If your front recovery points are being used it is almost certainly the case that you are the one who is stuck, so it really boils down to what the person who is going to recover you thinks, hes not bogged, why should he risk life and limb if he is not comfortable with your recovery points, remember that if they do fail the good samaritan doing the rescue is the one in danger.

On a PP trip that I led I told people to make sure they had suitable recovery points, welded loops might be "suitable" for a gentle tow out of a slight problem, but if you expect me to snatch you and your camper trailer up a dune using them then looks like you are on your own cause I aint doin it.

Cheers Andrew

[Bazza Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bazza]

My 2 bob's worth,

IMO I think that the later model Prados with the hoops welded through the chassis member are suitable as recovery points in most recovery situations using a equalizing strap. That said, if your buried up to your door handles in mud, then all methods of recovery are risky. Lets presume that there was no cracking in the chassis of the vehicle in the video. The amount of force required to snap the chassis member would be incredibly, given where it broke. If we are to assume that a large percentage of welds are not well made ( little penetration to the welded surfaces ), the welds on the vertical chassis member where the hoops are located should have ripped apart, as that chassis member is the "Achilles heel" of the entire setup on the 120's. Get yourself a winch and some Maxtracks, as snatching may be the easier option, but it is not kind on either of the vehicles involved.
Bazza.

[Trekrider Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trekrider]

Finally been able to look at the video clip (wouldn't work from work). It's interesting to see that the tie down point is still intact and if proper recovery points had been fitted (2 bolt version) it would probably have still broken at the same point - the two recovery point mounting holes are on the broken off piece. As the guy from ARB said, doesn't matter if the recovery point is rated if what you attach it to can't take it.

I would guess they used the one point for a single pull rather than use a bridle, as we all agree is the way to go irrespective of what recovery points you have fitted.

[Corigator Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Corigator]

My understanding is that the later model Prados have bolts on each end of the loops 4 per hoop that are each welded in place. I couldn't think of a tougher way to attach them.

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

Corigator, when you say later models are you referring to, still a 120 series or you referring to 150's ?? Cheers Steve

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

the first one above is front view



the second one above is where you can see the hook going right through, you can see through the gap



this one is where I just wiped the dust off the back of it so you can see the welds and the prongs coming through with weld on them, you can see one is clean the inner one still dirty but there is two there, sorry just quickly took pictures with phone.



there is no nut as such on the back it is just the steel hook coming through same picture as above, if you notice the bolt on the right this is where my soverign (spelling) bar bolts up, this hole is used by after market recovery hooks but is obviously where people are saying you need a spacer to build up the gap difference when fitting after market recovery hooks. Im no expert but I cant see coming adrift during a recovery, 4 welds all up 2 on the front 2 on the rear. I reckon you would have the same result as the youtube clip before these welds broke....? As I said I know nothing about welding except for cousin who does it for a living will get him to check it out but as Andrew said he along with others would say no to a recovery and PP organizers wouldnt rate them for recovery on a day out......... Cheers Steve

[rags Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close rags]

Maybe a dumb question but if the issue of the factory loops is the unknown quality of the welds ,so we therefore need to fit after market recovery points because the fitting bolts can be load rated ,why not just beef up the welds around the loops. The more i read about the newer vehicles today and their problems makes me wonder why i updated from an old sturdy 90series

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

My understanding is that the later model Prados have bolts on each end of the loops 4 per hoop that are each welded in place. I couldn't think of a tougher way to attach them.

120 series Prados don't come any later model than mine, no bolts on the loops on mine, just welded.

each loop on the later models (welded through rather than under) has aprox 200mm of weld, rule of thumb is 25mm of 6mm weld will hold 1 tonne, this is the failure point of the weld as opposed to a shackle for instance; that has a safety factor of around 7 times its rating from memory. If they are good welds and 6mm welds it should hold 8 tonne, the welds on mine are less than 6mm welds also they are not complete welds as you can see the non penetration where the weld starts and ends, so in my example the loop is good for less than 8 tonne but I have no idea how much less. In another thread going everyone is recomending using an 8 tonne snatch strap, the snatch strap should be the weakest point in the recovery link. So straight away we can see that a single loop is not good enough, given that we don't know how much less than 8 tonne the welds are good for, even using a bridle could be marginal.

EDIT: I wrote another couple of paragraphs but deleted it before posting, I can't believe this BS just keeps going round and round in circles, I should refrain from posting in recovery point threads as it drives me stark raving mad.

Cheers Andrew

[MidLifeCrisis Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close MidLifeCrisis]

120 series Prados don't come any later model than mine, no bolts on the loops on mine, just welded.

each loop on the later models (welded through rather than under) has aprox 200mm of weld, rule of thumb is 25mm of 6mm weld will hold 1 tonne, this is the failure point of the weld as opposed to a shackle for instance; that has a safety factor of around 7 times its rating from memory. If they are good welds and 6mm welds it should hold 8 tonne, the welds on mine are less than 6mm welds also they are not complete welds as you can see the non penetration where the weld starts and ends, so in my example the loop is good for less than 8 tonne but I have no idea how much less. In another thread going everyone is recomending using an 8 tonne snatch strap, the snatch strap should be the weakest point in the recovery link. So straight away we can see that a single loop is not good enough, given that we don't know how much less than 8 tonne the welds are good for, even using a bridle could be marginal.

EDIT: I wrote another couple of paragraphs but deleted it before posting, I can't believe this BS just keeps going round and round in circles, I should refrain from posting in recovery point threads as it drives me stark raving mad.

Cheers Andrew

Hehehehe, I love your work fella

[Steve M Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve M]

""I should refrain from posting in recovery point threads as it drives me stark raving mad."" Your doing extremely well in your replys lol. At least you know what your talking about when it comes to welding, unlike myself...Good point about the strap been the weakest link, will have to check mine, like usual I normally get the strongest one but yes would prefer the strap to break then do damage to a vehicle......Cheers have a great xmas and a safe one. Regards Steve