Cracks in Inner Guards

[sleeky Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close sleeky]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

It still doesn't satisfactorily answer why some without bars have also cracked. I also hope that the 07 onwards models have been fixed as the more I hear the less inclined I am to do anything but very slow and light 4wd work just in case I overstress the poor thing.

[4tshorty Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close 4tshorty]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

I hope I have nothing to worry about it either, and that Toyota have sorted the issue out!
One thing I see come up quite often, is reference to the extra weight of a second battery possibly causing or adding to the problem, but Toyota would possibly need to be carefull with blaming batteries when they have dual batteries fitted in other markets.
Here are some pics. of a Japanese model that I found online, and I have heard of reference to factory dual battery setups in cold climate markets.

[MickL Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close MickL]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

Thought I'd add my two cents worth :wink:

There are to different problems here, one is the guards cracking/fire wall cracking. The second is the cracking around the aux battery tray if one is fitted.

The battery tray issue is can be virtually eliminated by using a good quality tray and making sure there is minimal chance of it moving or vibrating around. It's not a 100% cure because unfortunately the sheet metal is just thin, but with a good installation you can sleep at night knowing it's unlikely to happen in "normal" off road driving (most of us). Of course in extreme conditions you have to keep an eye on it (If you drive like you stole it and live on a station or mine site )

It's a problem in many modern 4x4...panels are just very thin these days. My mates 2 year old Pajero has also cracked around the battery tray.

The guard cracking issue does seem to have some what gone away over time, in my opinion this is for one very good reason.... Toyota, ARB and TJM have all stopped tightening the front body mount down and compressing it (this was done to stop the illusion of the bar wobbling around on rough roads)

Think about it, the body wobbles around on the chassis on eight very large body mounts (Which is why the Prado has such a great ride).

Now tighten down the front mounts so there's no or reduced movement.... the rest of the body is still free to move around and acts as a great big lever.

The stresses have to show somewhere and the dimples for the crumple zones are an obvious place.

Yes, there are probably a few Prados that cracked with no bar at all, but by far the majority that have cracked have had compressed front mounts. It's the single biggest contributing factor to cracks and from an engineering point of view, compressing the front mounts is just stupid... defies belief almost.... what did they think was going to happen?

As a percentage, Prados with cracks are insignificant. Sure it's a problem to be aware of, but it's certainly not the issue it once was in the early "compressed" models.

It comes down to "Those with problems cry loudest" and and a bit of scare mongering by people driving other brands of vehicles... How many actual cracked Prados have we seen on this forum for example? two maybe? three at the most? out of 3000+ members? And where are the standard Prados with cracks?? I'm yet to see one or proof of one.. it's all mate of a mate stuff. Verges on urban myth.



Mick

[pradomod Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close pradomod]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

Mick,
I don't want to appear to be challenging your view but I know of two fj's as well as my prado(twice) that have suffered the cracking problem in the last 3 months. I have seen them under repair in toyota's body shop out here. My prado is a 2003 model so if the early ones had a flaw then i should expect to see it but the FJ's were only released in 2007. I guess only toyota know the real scale of the problem and they're not going to offer any insights on pradopoint...more's the pity. The closest i've found to any hint of solving my problem is the axe4x4 renfort d'ailes solution which i understand from an earlier part of this thread is a result of toyota's competition development dept's response to the problem.....basically they stiffen up the spars and wheel arch skins with another layer of bolt on steel. This is the only kit I have found that appears to offer a solution. Otherwise the only choice is to start having spot welded seams continuously brazed and other extreme stuff to strengthen the front end.... bit extreme really for a car that should be capable for the occaisional bump...my old kia sorento had absolutely crap suspension but never had cracking even when i had simliar bumps to the ones that have caused my prado to get damaged....I'm convinced there is a fault to be addressed and if what you are sayingis true...no problems with later models...then toyota must have found a solution....in which case i say ...bring it on and let's see it available within the dealership scope of services.

[HIKDJ Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close HIKDJ]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

I hope I have nothing to worry about it either, and that Toyota have sorted the issue out!
One thing I see come up quite often, is reference to the extra weight of a second battery possibly causing or adding to the problem, but Toyota would possibly need to be carefull with blaming batteries when they have dual batteries fitted in other markets.
Here are some pics. of a Japanese model that I found online, and I have heard of reference to factory dual battery setups in cold climate markets.

This appears to make good sense. It is an issue here in France among "raiders" and all our KDJ's are equipped with dual batteries.
This in combination with a stiffer suspension which increases dynamic forces.
By the way, Toyota has nothing sorted out. They have apparently decided to let us live with the issue until the next model comes out.

[pradomod Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close pradomod]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

Hi KIKdj,
Good to hear your point of view. Reflecting back on your earlier contributions, which to my mind were of great practical use, it makes sense to reinforce the weaknesses of anotherwise superb 4x4 vehicle if you are intending to take it seriously offroad..les raids for example. In my experience its less a matter of intent and more a matter of unfortunate event that has led to the cause of my cracking problems. When I see my friends encountering the same terrain and surprises but without the same end result...and i'm talking 100 LC's, TJ jeeps and Nissan Patrols, most of which are challenged by the 120's capabilities in the dunes, then it's a bummer to be the only one that has to say...sorry guys I'll sit the next trip out because I've got some bent panels to fix. Yes, the focus of my concern is typically the jumps and bumps type of problem and we're not talking deliberate take off scenarios, but gut instinct tells me that that if the occaisional jump and bump that never affected my crappy old Sorento causes this sort of problem then the other prime cause of problems...corrugations...is just another symptom of the fundemental shortcoming of an otherwise great car. I don't believe its as a limited a problem as suggested by others but to my mind its all part of the same basic problem and if there is a simple fix, like for example the renfort d'ailes kit, and this is proven to be a real solution, then i don't really care. I just want to know whether it works. So, what has been your experience so far KIKDJ? Have you had the opportunity to put it to a fair and reasonable test so far? I would really love to know because if it works, and if I can actually sorce it out here, then I'm on a par with my pals' cars and only have to worry about the normal problems of what size tyres, wheels and other modifications to fit. Please let me know the view from the french fraternitie...meanwhile, vive les Prados!!

[Guest Close Guest]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

Pradomod. Again, it appears that in your own words your prado has had "excessive" force placed upon it during nosing in after jumps or miscalculations on dunes. Engine cowlings touching radiator supports is a BIG hit!
This in itself has probably stressed the body so far that it is constantly going to play up from now. I know of this thru the experiences in Rally cars as well, once something has torn, you can never stop it no matter how much seam welding you do..............
It may be worth taking into consideration that this initial damage could cause you many years of woe to come. A reshell or replacement may be in order. :idea:



The issue in Australia, in my views seems to have really died off, remembering "we dont have the FJ here". I havent heard of a Prado with the issue in ages?!?!
I am like Mick, aware that certain installers used to tighten down the front mounts to make the bar appear to shake less, this IMHO is most likely the cause of the issue.
I know of Barred, winched, Dual Batteried (Even one triple batteried) prados that have done hundreds of thousands of KMs in Dunes, corrugations etc most of their life and not had any issues yet. A guy I know is a professional outback photog and he is offroad about 3 weeks of every month on average.

[mumstruk Member Find all posts View Profile Close mumstruk]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

I am with you pigman. I made a post a while back about a trip"around the block" in my brothers HG Holden and our trip to Weipa. It seems that right foot not connected to the brain is the reason for many broken cars.
I backed off the front body mount bolts some time ago when I first bought our Prado after I crawled underneath and had a close inspection of everything I could play with under the car. I noted then that the front body rubbers seemed more compressed then the rest. Do get the odd creak and plenty of bar shake (optical illusion). We make the occaisional foray into the bush and the wilder the better but our car is no weekend warrior. I have not fitted an aux battery but have a Redarc fitted to power the camper when in tow. I have not seen any cracks in our 05 Prado.
Has anybody fitted an aux battery in any place other than under the bonnet? How about AGM sealed batteries similar to the Optima inside the rear panels or under the floor in the rear corners? These can be mounted in any position.
It is interesting that there has not been a lot said about cracked inner wings in a while but I am not discounting other peoples experience.

[MickL Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close MickL]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

Mick,
I don't want to appear to be challenging your view but I know of two fj's as well as my prado(twice) that have suffered the cracking problem in the last 3 months.

Challenge away... it's an open forum and we are all entitled to an opinion... it makes for a good discussion. As long as it dosen't degrade into a flaming match I OK with it.

I'd like to point out the while every one loves to compare the fj and LWB 120 wagon they don't have as much in common as people think.

Yes they are based on the same platform, share similiar design concepts and some components come from the same parts bin (drive train and suspension) and but there are more differences than just the outer panels and interior.

For starters the chassis are not exactly the same.. the wheel base on the FJ is 4" shorter, not that I think that has anything to do with the cracking issue.

I've looked through the whole cracking FJ thread and those inner guards are not the same, sure the design concept is the same (crumple zones) but , looking at the pictures, it's not even close to being interchangeable.

The crumple zones are designed to be a point of weakness and control the way the guard collapses in an accident so it stands to reason that any stress put into the panels would show in the weakest point first.

Sure the problem with the FJ seems to be large scale, but I think it's unfair to paint the Prado cracking issue with the same brush.

It's just not the issue people make it out to be in Australia, not in the last few years anyway.

Mick

[Guest Close Guest]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

Spot on Mick.

[ntp Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close ntp]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

Interesting recall notice issued the other day: Landcruiser 200 recall - cracks in frame

Defect Details: On certain Land Cruiser 200 model vehicles where fitted with Toyota genuine bull bars, especially if they operate for long periods in harsh usage conditions such as corrugated roads, the bull bar bracket design allows excessive load to be applied to the front frame portion that supports the bull bar. This can result in cracking of the frame welds.

[HIKDJ Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close HIKDJ]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

Hi KIKdj,
..... So, what has been your experience so far KIKDJ? Have you had the opportunity to put it to a fair and reasonable test so far? I would really love to know because if it works, and if I can actually sorce it out here, then I'm on a par with my pals' cars and only have to worry about the normal problems of what size tyres, wheels and other modifications to fit. Please let me know the view from the french fraternitie...meanwhile, vive les Prados!!

My experience with the "renforts d'ailes" is still limited. I have participated in one raid to Libya, 1500 km offroad. A well controlled dune jump should not be a problem even for a Prado without the reinforcement. I always try to be very gentle towards my hardware but then there is always the occasional rougher than intended dune passing. Also agree that corrugated roads seem to me to be a risk factor.
I have not heard of anyone who has fitted the reinforcement and still ended up with cracks, but of course that also proves very little.
As to the real cause of the cracks, I believe there is really nobody who knows for sure.

[bilo33prado Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close bilo33prado]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

Are the cracks on both driver and passenger sides where both batterys are or only driver sides when a 2nd battery installed? I have ARB deluxe bar and 2nd battery mounted on drivers side. Might have to have a good look for cracks. Bar and battery fitted 0ct 2008

[MickL Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close MickL]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

Are the cracks on both driver and passenger sides where both batterys are or only driver sides when a 2nd battery installed? I have ARB deluxe bar and 2nd battery mounted on drivers side. Might have to have a good look for cracks. Bar and battery fitted 0ct 2008

Two separate issues:

One - Drivers side battery mount around the encapsulated nuts. This is the most common place for cracks, if you are using a quality aftermarket (something along the lines of the Piranha) tray then the risks of cracking are small.
My advice here is use a Piranha (or similar) tray and whenever you are doing under bonnet checks make sure your battery is secure and hasn’t worked its way loose. Every major service take the battery out and check all the mounting screw/nuts/bolts. Use loctite/nyloc nuts where possible.

Two - Inner guards (Body wheel arches, inner fenders along the crumple zone dimples and in the worst cases spreading to the fire wall). This one seems to have pretty much died out, even in mines vehicles and those used in "Harsh" conditions. I think it's safe to say the biggest contributing factor was the practice by bullbar installers (including Toyota) of compressing the front body mounts (This was done to stop the movement of the body on the chassis which gave the illusion that the B/bar was loose).
As this practice has been stopped we have seen the cracking issue all but disappear on late model vehicles. Still worth a quick check every service or after hard 4wding.
Like everything those with problems scream the loudest so the problem seems greater than it ever was. As a percentage of sales, Prados that developed cracks are a very small percentage, almost insignificant.

Mick

[bilo33prado Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close bilo33prado]

Re: Cracks in Inner Guards

Great info thanks, i have the Piranha tray. When i get a spare 20min i'll check it all out. Thanks again.