charging rate

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Re: charging rate

Hi drivesafe,

You need to read all the threads, in the D4D the charging rate has been considerably
reduced. It is barely able to maintain the cranking battery at a reasonable state of
car let alone charge an aux.

Cheers
LeighW

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Re: charging rate

Hi Leigh and thanks.

I’ve actually been reading quite a few of the threads over the last few months.

I work with dual battery gear and the low operating voltage is not just limited to Toyotas. Any vehicle intended for sale in Europe pretty well has the same or similar low operating voltages.

It’s all intended to reduce exhaust emissions.

The thing is though, all the research I’ve done, including testing vehicles in use, have shown that, while it will take longer to fully charge batteries, cranking, auxiliary and house batteries, they can still be fully charged to 95% SoC or better and this includes Calcium/Calcium batteries, with these low operating voltages.

As posted, I have been reading the different threads, but I haven’t seen any comparison tests done in any of the threads to determine just how much of an advantage all the different methods really offer over what your alternators can do by themselves.

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Re: charging rate

Hi drivesafe,

Check out the Ranox and Redarc sites, they will have plenty of literature extolling their products.

You could also check out the threads in the 150 section on charging problems and diode mods.

Some products are targeted at reducing the aux battery time form many hours to 2 - 4.
The diode mods will affect both main and aux.

Some are very high tech the diodes low tech.

Some very expensive others far cheaper.

It really depends on your needs as to what you require.

Cheers
LeighW

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Re: charging rate

Hi again Leigh, while these DC to DC step up devices can in some cases charge a battery quicker than an alternator can, you really need to get both sides of the story and not just the gloss bit the sellers of these wonder device want you to hear.

While there can be an advantage when using some of these wonder devices, it amazes me no end the lengths the sellers go to to try to convince people that these wonder devices will do a better job than an alternator can do.

They don’t do a better job, in some case they will do a QUICKER job but there are far, FAR more cases where an alternator will do a quicker job.

Also, the more power you need between chargers, the less the of an advantage these wonder devices can give and the instant you need to charge more than one decent size battery at a time, they actually become a liability in that they will take much longer to charge two or three low batteries than what your ordinary garden variety alternator can do, even when it has a low operating voltage.

Don’t get me wrong, these wonder devices have their place but they sure as hell are NOT the end all to charging batteries. Far from it.

As to the diode, as I posted earlier, I won’t comment on their use.

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Re: charging rate

Hi drivesafe,

I totally agree with what your saying. I make the Alternator voltage booster sold on Ebay.
I started doing this after purchasing a 120 D4D and on installing a Rotronics Dual battery system
was surprised to see how low the charge rate is on these vehicles. After looking around I
decided the asking price for a DC-DC charger was simply not worth the benifts they provide
and decided to simply bring the 120 charge rate back to what has been the norm since cars
hit the road. This has now given me a very acceptable recharge time for my aux.

As you wrote DC-DC chargers have their place in market, ie charging disimilar battery types or battery
types the charging system was not designed for, but they are definetly not the need all
device the manufactures literature tells you they are.

After all they are in the business of selling chargers.

Yes i do market a product myself but mainly to give people a cheaper, simple and far less expensive
alternative to DC-DC chargers but unfortunately it will never make me rich

Better still, if they have some knowledge and are confident they can source the parts and do it them self
using information posted in this forum if they so desire.

Cheers
leighW

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

Re: charging rate

Drivesafe, you pop up on just about every forum extolling the virtues of the alternator and big cables, have you ever owned and/or tested your theory on a D4D Prado? I've had the setup you propose in my D4D for 2 years and have come to the conclusion you can't get enough charge into the aux batteries. I had planned on fitting the Redarc BCDC but this would mean rework and trying to squeeze things into an already tight under bonnet area. I plan to trial one of Leigh's devices as it's an easier installation and I can test the results quite easily.

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Re: charging rate

D4D,

I would be quite happy to loan you one for avaluation purposes if you like and
have you post your evaluation be it good bad or indifferent.

Send me an email next week and I'll either drop them around as you have indicated
you don't live far from me or you can pick them up?

Cheers
LeighW

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Re: charging rate

Hi D4D, no mate I haven’t and I don’t have to.

The way in which the charging systems in new Toyotas work is not new and as posted earlier, any vehicle intended for sale in Europe has this or similar charging.

And while I haven’t fitted any my self, there are plenty running around with my gear in them.

5 years ago, Land Rover Australia approached me and asked could I produce an isolator that worked with the then new Discovery 3s.

A number of isolators on the market were causing incompatibility problems with the operating systems of the D3s.

They supplied me with the operating specs for the D3 and I modified a number of my controllers. These were tested by LRA for a few months and then I was given a report that showed they worked perfectly with these vehicles.

I then went into production with the new specs and thanks to Land Rover Australia, my controllers were probably the first in Australia to cater for the lower operating voltages.

D3/4s have an operating voltage of between 13.2v and 15.5v which is very similar to what Toyota now operates in some of there vehicles.

As to alternators and correct sized cable being all you need, this is a proven fact and if you then add one of my controllers to the equation, the more power you use the more likely your vehicle will actually be able to bring your batteries to a full charged state quicker then any of these DC to Dc step up wonder devices can.

Furthermore, as posted above, if your power requirements increase and you find you need to add a second or even third auxiliary/house battery, these DC to DC wonder devices become a detriment not a benefit.

It doesn’t matter what voltage operating system any vehicle has, if anyone is looking at setting up a dual battery system, do loads of research first because you will probably save yourself a fortune and still get a optimum charging system.

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

Re: charging rate

Hi D4D, no mate I haven’t

Thanks, that is all

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

Re: charging rate

D4D,

I would be quite happy to loan you one for avaluation purposes if you like and
have you post your evaluation be it good bad or indifferent.

Actually you can trial two if you like, I would like to get your opinion as to which
version you believe performs better in your vehicle.

Send me an email next week and I'll either drop them around as you have indicated
you don't live far from me or you can pick them up?

Cheers
LeighW

Thanks Leigh, sounds like a great offer, I'll be in touch.

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Re: charging rate

Hi D4D, no mate I haven’t

Thanks, that is all

Hi again D4D, and sorry to disappoint you mate, but the Toyota charging system is nothing out of the ordinary, it’s just like numerous other charging systems.

The up side is that this means there are a lot more options available than you would otherwise think.

Cheers.

[D4D Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close D4D]

Re: charging rate

I connected my multimeter (Fluke 77) to the cranking battery on my way to work this morning, 45klm journey approx 45 mins, interesting results. Clearly shows why my calcium aux battery is not delivering it's max Ah.

0-15 mins (dead cold - 100km/h) 13.77-13.99V
15-30 mins (60 - 100 km/h) 13.55-13.77V
30-45 mins (stop start traffic) 13.19-13.44V

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Re: charging rate

Hi again D4D, I’m curious about the voltage variations, did you have headlights on and any other loads.

As I’ve posted, I have not worked on any Toyota with the new voltage operations and these three readings you have posted, look like there is a load that is charging, like a battery or two.

BTW, even at 13.19v you will still fully charge a Ca/Ca battery to at least 95% SoC BUT, it will take time and if your cranking battery was near fully charged when you started your drive, that first 15 minutes would have easily replaced the energy used during starting the motor and the additional 30 minutes was just gravy.

One question for you, why do you think your cranking battery is not fully charged?

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Re: charging rate

Hi drivesafe,

The readings D4D posted are fairly typical for a D4D with no load, actually
they are somewhat better than some.

Hence the discussions on different ways to to get the volts required
to charge the batteries.

I have read you advocate using heavy cable etc to overcome voltage losses etc
and I totally agree but the bottom line here is running very heavy duty cable and
using isolators with low insertion losses is not going to make any difference if you
just don't have the charge volts required to start with :cry:

This is why most companies marketing plain isolators now acknowledge the D4D is
not suitable for their products.

Cheers
LeighW

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Re: charging rate

Hi Leigh, while I do agree whole heartedly that high voltage is an advantage, but the lower voltage will still fully charge batteries so I don’t know why any isolator manufacturers would say their products won’t charge batteries, especially when you consider that most have now lowered their cut-in voltage level to cater for these vehicles.

Remember, Toyotas are only the latest in a line of vehicles that are adopting this lower operating voltage and Discovery 3s have been doing it for 5 years and at 13.2v they have no problems fully charging two and three batteries, so unless the is some peculiarity in the way a Toyota does it, that there might be a problem, but I know for a fact, based on the feedback from customers with Prados and LC200, that there is no problem with Toyotas achieving the very same results.

The lower voltage simply means it will take longer and even this will depend on how low the batteries are when you start you days drive.