diesel rattle in D4D Prado

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

diesel rattle in D4D Prado

Gday Guys

As much as i also welcome knowledge can i safely say that "ALL" PRADO 120 SERIES D4D's in australia "ARE" Euro4?... If so!!.. Why would we be talking "Hilux" when there is another forum for that?.. And yes! Older hilux D4D's are Euro3 but doesn't that confuse this thread as there is no Hilux in the Prado thread?

Would it also be fair to say by drifting onto other model's (Hilux Euro3) it only confuses those that are trying to get there head around the whole injector thing?

If we acknowledge that this is a "Prado 120 series D4D - Euro4" (explicit to Australia identified by the variable EGR heat exchange) then i believe there would be less of a confusion for the Prado 120 series D4D owners!

I also agree that the "DLC" injectors move more freely due to the carbon coating but wouldn't it also be fair to say that the "None DLC" injectors once run just as smooth when they "was" exposed to the now obsolete "500ppm sulpher" which now no longer exists and the "now 10ppm sulpher" will cause the None DLC injectors to prematurely wear due to lack of sulpher lubrication which will also cause more drag!.. This in turn brings the conversation on this thread back explicitly to the "PRADO 120 Series D4D Euro4"... Nothing to do with Hilux and there Euro3's.

I am not ranting!... Seriously!!.. But drifting to irrelevant models only confuses those that are trying to grasp answers.

I am also very aware that "All" 150 series Prado's" run Peizo injectors only but i would not expect them in the 120 series header as that would only confuse people again don't you think?

Hope i will not be taken the wrong way on what i think is relevant with thread headers as this is one reason why people cant find valid and valuable information if it pops up in the wrong thread in the wrong section further down the line when people in the future are looking for specific information.

skwalker---run will now do just that!... Run!! Lol

Cheers

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Wasn't the high sulphur diesel gone before Euro IV motors were introduced? I remember being worried about pump seals on a different brand 4wd that was pre diesel Prado and my mate had to rebuild his lux because of leaks. He was a diesel fitter so he managed ok. No doubt that sulphur in diesel worked as a lubricant but surely the first D4D engines should have been designed for ultra low sulphur as Europe had for many years before us?

Guess this doesn't contribute to this thread either. Oops.

Have to say it's great to have a few knowledgable guys in the business on here.

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

ULSD was actually introduced in 2000 but enforced by 2006

Ooops! It was actually 2009 in Australia but i must be spending tooo much time looking over seas

Ultra-low-sulfur diesel

Cheers

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Gday John

No problemo!.. I was actually laughing when i written what i written but we must also understand that there is people out there that can not visulise the componants or understand the the jargon that we take for granted and can somestimes confuse those that are not in the know!

I fully agree with you on the humor! ... I do believe i have a good idea on your humor and very rarely take you the wrong way (If at all!)

I believe we have had our debates in the past but never got personal towards each other (well!!.. I don't!.. Lol) but always entertaining with productive answers along the way! Lol

Cheers

[gumboot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close gumboot]

Couple of questions
-What does Toyota charge to reflash your ECU with the latest Firmware?
-Would you use Toyota for the injector test, or a diesel specialist? I presume as long as they have the right scan tool, it doesnt matter.

Cheers

[Baileys Diesel Group Member Find all posts View Profile Close Baileys Diesel Group]

Guys;
Just another point that we keep seeing with regards to the on engine injector compensation testing.

The injector compensation is simply there to maintain engine rpm. THe ECU looks at the rotational speed of the engine, and marrys up each cylinders firing with an increase or decrease in speed, and then adjusts the fuels to make them all nice and even.

Now normally, the major factor that is going to effect the power from each cylinder is most definately fuel, however its not the only factor. Couple this with the fact that we're looking at idle (essentially were tryingto recover compression and a little bit more with fuel) that other factors come into play more.

What we're seeing on SOME of the older vehicles is that compression is starting to drop in one or two cylinders (ALWAYS seems to be 3 - the same that always melts / cracks a piston) and because the compression has dropped it has less negative energy, and therefore required less fuel to maintain the same speed.

We recently had a Prado in here that cylinders 1,2+4 were with in 0.2 total, but cylinder 3 was NEGATIVE 1.3-1.5. SO we swapped all the injectors around and always came up with the same result, therefore if its not injectors, it must be the block. We also had a client from WA call us back with a similar thing last week, were we think it might also be the same.
*** This is not to say that this engines will have a immenent death, we're talking 1.5% compensation of fuel (on bugger all to start with), so really the compression maybe down 1 bar (at most - on around 35) which in terms of a 200,000k engine is 'somewhat' normal. no need to panic, it just means that these injector compensation tests, sometimes need to be taken with a small grain of salt...

Anyway, we;ve really only seen it effect cylinder 3, and it will only be negative (and a reasonable number more than the rest) if this problem is present. Anyway, just a little more information for you all.

[mackayvx Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close mackayvx]

My buddy from work just informed me that he has the cold knock.
Toyota recommends he replaces his injectors.
Ive refeffered him to this site for information and would say he will become a member.

Its a 2007 with 115k on the clock.

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Brain Storming only!

Gday Baileys Diesel Group

I have a theory that is based solely on "brain storming!" and your observation only convinces me more as i have mentioned this in previous post's going back a few pages on this thread!

What we're seeing on SOME of the older vehicles is that compression is starting to drop in one or two cylinders (ALWAYS seems to be 3 - the same that always melts / cracks a piston) and because the compression has dropped it has less negative energy, and therefore required less fuel to maintain the same speed.

We recently had a Prado in here that cylinders 1,2+4 were with in 0.2 total, but cylinder 3 was NEGATIVE 1.3-1.5. SO we swapped all the injectors around and always came up with the same result, therefore if its not injectors, it must be the block. We also had a client from WA call us back with a similar thing last week, were we think it might also be the same.
*** This is not to say that this engines will have a immenent death, we're talking 1.5% compensation of fuel (on bugger all to start with), so really the compression maybe down 1 bar (at most - on around 35) which in terms of a 200,000k engine is 'somewhat' normal. no need to panic, it just means that these injector compensation tests, sometimes need to be taken with a small grain of salt...

I do believe that there seems to be too much attention/conviction on the fuel injectors!... There used to be issues with premature wear but i do believe that was fixed with the introduction of DLC injectors when the sulpher in fuel was reduced!

I will try to condense the "crad" out of what i believe IMHO (In My Honest Opinion) is the big picture where i think the fuel injector is the victim of what could be a bad design in the cylinder head its self!

WHY!.. We know that the ECM or ECU (Same thing different abbreviation) wants to compensate/balance out each cylinder power stroke in order to sustain even power and smooth idle but we never focus on what triggers No1 or No3 to commonly fail!.. A bit like air crash investigations!... (Elevated fuel pressures or any engine mods not included in this theory).

I reckon it all starts at the "EGR!" (Exhaust Gas Recirculation).. WHY?.. Because this is where i believe all of the intense heat starts with the No:1 cylinder in question!

For starters its No1 cylinder that has had 3 x modified injector clamps for No1 cylinder!... Why did Toyota do that?.... I would of thought the bolt would stretched before the clamp?

EG #1: The EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) port passes directly across N0:1 cylinder across the front of the cylinder head! (internally) I believe because of this hollow cavity in the front of the cylinder head for the Exhaust gases to by-pass in-order to get to the EGR heat-exchange (Air is less efficient than water/coolant to disperse heat) N0:1 cylinder drags first due to access heat from the exhaust gases.

EG #2: ECU notices this cylinder lagging and puts more fuel into N0:3 cylinder to compensate N0:1!... I believe this then in turn makes N0:3 cylinder generate even more heat/load on that cylinder in order to carry No:1 cylinder.... (How many times have i used the word cylinder so far?) Lol

So now we have the beginning of a big chain reaction!.. Maybe a breached injector seating washer? (Also known as a heat shield).

EG #3: While all of this is going on No:3 Cylinder bore has its oil washed and reduced of cylinder lubrication (Due to extra fuel!) Now there is the possibilities of piston grab or increased hot spot on the crown of the piston (No:3) due to increased fuel/load but it doesn't stop there!.. Whilst all this is happening number one cylinder is now getting really hot and No:3 piston may suffer from possible crumble due to extreme hot spot on the crown of the piston (Hence the hole in the crown of the piston).. Similar circumstances happening to No1 cylinder! Basically 1 & 3 are the culprits.

Now we imagine the exaggerated theory of all the above and then realise that No:1 injector and seating washer (Heat shield) are "Really getting hot at this point!.. The seating washer breaches and then a whole new scenario of different events is now triggered from the original catalyst (No:1 Cylinder lacking the ability to efficiently cool the same as 2-3 & 4 cylinders as they (2-3 & 4 cylinders) are fully surrounded by a water jacket but also keeping in mind that No3 cylinder is prematurely over heating due to trying to compensate No1 cylinder!... Lol... I hope you kept up with all of that!

Put aside for one second that all of that compensation mayhem is happening between cylinders 1 & 3 and now focus on the oil-pickup fouling because a seating washer popped for what ever reason!... Lol

If this was to be proven as a bad cylinder head design then i would think that would take a lot of the blame game away from Denso don't you think?

Also!.. If the fuel injector is made to work harder and exposed to abnormal heat wouldn't this also encourage an injector to fail?

On that note i must heavily stress/enforcise that all of the above is heavily over enforcised in order to point out what i believe is the possible/plausible big picture of what could be causing seating washer failure/blocked oil pickup/engine oil starvation and engine failure.... oooh!... and lets not forget injector failure!

Hence there is more than one problem!

Cheers

[pjorek Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close pjorek]

must get myself one of those EGR temp probes

[Baileys Diesel Group Member Find all posts View Profile Close Baileys Diesel Group]

HI SkywalkerRun;

Interesting reading there. I personally have had bugger all to do with looking into the block itself. But one thing is for certain, there is a recurrent issue against all engines with 1+3 (mostly 3) from our experience. and that injector correction values are certainly not the be all and end all when dealing with injector condition.

Anyway, your theory above certainly seems plausible...

Anyone reading this for the first time would never buy a D4D engine!!! the problems we talk about are somewhat common in others as well, just not enough smart people like SWR above to point them out.

My client from Western NSW is talking about -1.5% correction in cylinder 3. in reality, 1.5% is really not a big number. 35-37Bar and being a little low at idle isn't really even going to be noticable to most people. And the number of people running around with 250-300K's on the car shows they certainly can do it, just they may need a little more 'luvin' then most Hilux owners are used to...

The conversations that happen on this forum are at another level all toghether than most. Its fun and interesting to be a part of.
Thanks

[Fronty Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Fronty]

Guys, mine is getting the injectors replaced next week (by Toyota under extended warranty). Mine is an April 07 D4D. Is there anything that I can request such as newer style seats or injectors? Or should I be happy with a 'like for like' replacement? Can I get a newer style of injector? Should I ask Toyota to drop the oil and check the oil pick up?

Once I have the new injectors - what precautions or measures can I take to ensure their longevity? Should I use something like flashlube to keep them lubricated? Should I install a second fuel filter?

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Gday John

I am not prepared to advise anyone on the torque settings unless Toyota was to say otherwise! Lol .. I did do mine tighter but that doesn't mean to say that i did the write thing! .... Lol

I still reckon the "only reason" for the re-location of the turbo inter cooler was for exhaust emission reasons and nothing to do with the fuel injectors!.. I also reckon the fuel re-circulating through the injectors and then back to the fuel tank and also with the fuel injectors being submerged in the engine oil inside the cam-cover would be good enough to remove extreme heat from the fuel injectors... Basically fuel and oil cooled!

I am personally still set on my theory because if it was the injector clamp failer wouldn't it also happen on the other injectors just as common as is does on cylinders 1 & 3!!

Here is something that i discovered whilst checking part numbers and i think you will be a tad surprised!... Maybe?

Did you know or was you aware that the 2004 3Ltr D4D common rail right through to the 150 series 2010 Prado's "all" have exactly the same cylinder head!... I know this as they "all" have exactly the same part number for the cylinder head! they all also have exactly the same crankshaft! ... Now that's something to think about!! Lol

All three engines have different pistons but basically all three engines are the same with consistent "improvements" to the fuel system/ Electronics which in turn have produced more power/ Better fuel consumption and cleaner exhaust emissions!

2004 TOYOTA PRADO (KDJ120R-GKFEYW)
Cylinder Head --- 11101-30050

2006 TOYOTA PRADO (KDJ120R-GKFEYQ)
Cylinder Head --- 11101-30050

2010 TOYOTA PRADO (KDJ150R-GKFEYQ)
Cylinder Head --- 11101-30050

Now with that point of observation i think we can safely say that the 1KD in general is a tough engine but obviously you do get failures and given that we are now in 2013 running a 2004 design engine i think it has stood the test of time.

I also believe over the years they might have changed the variations slightly in the pistons but basically also the same engine block and i believe the same con rods. All the above engines have swirl flaps on the induction manifold.

I reckon its time for Toyota to re-design there engine! LMAO .... Just kidding!

I reckon i would only (And i personally do!) change the seating washers if the oil pickup is fouled or injectors out of range and wouldn't have the injector range checked unless not happy with noise or performance!... The reason why i say this is because all of this preventative stuff just seems to be getting out of control if you ask me!..... Did anyone ask me?..... Eeer Nope!!.... Are well!.. I said it anyway!.. Lol

... Wasn't Toyota saying at one stage if you touch the injector pipes that you was supposed to replace them?? ..Does that mean in NZ that they are going through shit loads of injector pipes every time time they change seating washers every 40k?.... I'm don't think so!

On that note!.. Since i have had my rig from brand new i have always/only changed my engine oil/Filter at every 10k and still running stock fuel filter system (None genuine @ every 10k) and so far done over 160,000km!.... You watch i bet Murphy's sod law will get me now based on bragging writes! Lol

Guess what else i found out!!.. According to Toyota in there words there genuine fuel filters only go down to 10 microns without its water separation bowl but it has a water trap built into the filter anyway!

Under the header "Superior Filter Construction"

TOYOTA QUOTE: "Toyota Genuine Fuel Filters are engineered to catch particles as small as ten microns" Un-Quote.

"So there you have it!!" It "IS" 10 microns!!.. Not 7 and "NOT" 3 or 2!! Read the link below

I did search high and low on information that says otherwise and could not find anything on it anywhere?

Toyota Genuine Fuel Filters

Cheers

[Fronty Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Fronty]

Do you guys reccomend something like diesel flashlube? My current injectors (soon to be replaced) are being replaced because of their noise. Would a supplementary lubrication help ensure their longevity?

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

...and wouldn't have the injector range checked unless not happy with noise or performance!...

Reckon I agree with pretty much everything you have said except this. My D4D had no symptoms of injector problems (OK it was the interim injector fitted late 2007 and not the DLC injector that was standard from Dec 07 build on). My thoughts are get the injectors checked at the 40k services when you insist that the dealer does a cold valve clearance check. I'm not sure if the injectors HAVE to come out to check the clearances or just to adjust the clearances. My service guy reckons the former but John's post indicates the latter. So the concern is that if the valve clearance check is done with injectors in and they should be out does that mean the check is compromised? Not that I have ever heard of any adjustment being necessary up to 120k. Or if the injectors come out and the fuel pipes are reused how many times can they be retorqued before a leak?

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Gday John

Just when we thought there was a head-way on conclusions!

Ive already come to the conclusion of walking away from this thread!... Seriously!! Lol

1,701 replies since "30-04-2008" and still no further apart from suggestions of oil change every 5K not 10k? (All 7ltrs of it with oil filter) ... injector seats every 40-45K? (Just for the hell of it!) $300 for an extra fuel filter mod? (Peace of mind!) And $1,200 for a inter-cooler mod?... Is the engine really that bad?... Honestly??.. I don't think so!

I will piss people off by mentioning the "TABOO" subject of engine mods!

Spending a $200 to $300 for a fuel filter upgrade then having to change 2 x fuel filters is also pure nuts unless in the outback with known crap fuel suppliers of fuel of course?

All in the name of preventative maintenance?... Why not buy a simple water trap with a big glass bowl on it? Or at least replace the 10 micron with a high flow 2 micron! (Have one and loose the other but not have both!).

It is a known fact that the first sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?... LMAO!

IF you change oil every 5k will it stop the injector seat from popping?.... NO!

If you upgrade the fuel system will it stop the injector seat from popping?.... NO!

If you up-grade the inter-cooler will it stop the injector seal from popping?... NO!

If you check the oil pick-up on every 10k can it save the engine? Absolutely when caught early!

What if seal pops when just changed oil?.... Answer: Probably suffer smoke when engine stood/loss of power and possible rattle!

How could i confirm this?... You get your injector values checked!

Do i do the injector values on the fly? Answer: "NO" it has to be left over night in-order to get true injector value readings whilst cold as you will get false value readings if engine is warm!

What if i get bad batch of fuel?... You will no as car will splutter (Should get warning light) and may harm injectors if large amounts of water ingested!

What can i do in such an event? Answer: Drain water out of filter (Fit new filter when possible) and keep an eye on water level and worse case new injectors. (A fact of life if you buy bad fuel supply).

Will i be putting at big risk on my rig if mods not carried out! Answer: depends if live in outback or don't follow simple checks!... How long is that piece of string?? or more the case how big is your wallet? Lol

CONCLUSION No1: Unless you are a "A" grade worry wart if you check oil pick-up every service and careful in general on who the fuel suppler is, a normal service schedule should not be a problem and if worried about a louder than normal engine rattle then get an injector value check.

My conclusion on the fuel filter/Injectors/seals and oil pick-up is not something that i thought of over night but have also known for a long awhile so there is no news flash there!.. Past threads will confirm this!

ALSO: If you put a 10 micron in line with a 10 micron wont this inadvertently put extra load on the fuel tank pump!.... If so would it be possible that the extra line pressure not only load that $1,000 little fuel pump and possible cause its fuse to pop or worse burn out-

If this pump was to stop for what ever reason (Fuel tank pump) can we say that the sub tank will no longer empty and then inadvertently cause the "high pressure fuel pump" to then not only have to suck the fuel from the main tank but also work harder to sustain the high pressures and cause the high pressure pump to also get noisy? (Now that pump would hurt your wallet if stuffed up!).

Isn't the high-pressure pump supposed to be kept saturated with a pooling supply of fuel in order to stop it from going negative on the supply side?

If the fuel tank pump was to stop wouldn't this also cause aerating of the fuel supply if the the high pressure pump was forced to suck when it is supposed to have a saturated fuel supply?

Just more thoughts that have gone through my head in the past when thinking the old "To every action there will be a reaction" principle!

Conclusion No2: To every action there will be a reaction!... Are you aware of the reaction of your action?... Priceless!

I am not having a dummy spit/rant or attacking anyone but putting my thoughts out there with everyone else's and hopefully some common sense with it!

On that note i must say i have my own personal biffs towards TOYOTA and more than happy to give them a big bash if i think they are shafting someone but i think all this self inflicticted preventative stuff really is self inflicted at times! (Meaning spending heaps of unnecessary wodds of cash).

If i was told that i had to buy 14 Litre's of engine oil with oil filter every 10k and spend an extra $200 to $300 dollars on a fuel filter upgrade then change the injector seals every 40-50k after paying 60-70-80k to buy a 4x4 rig i would laugh and walk away!...Seriously i would!

As it happens i follow the service manual (Not to the letter of course) and armed with the knowledge on this forum i have a low service/maintenance Prado that i call a "PUFFY PRINCESS" as it gets treated better than i do!

As far as injector wear goes!.. They are a moving part and like the tyres on you rig they will eventually wear!.. If only changing one or two injectors (Pure stupidity when the remainder have also worn?) you have to fit the same as originals... Would be more logic to try and strike a deal to pay the extra and get all 4 x changed to the DLC's. All Aussie D4D 120 series Prado's are Euro4 and will take the 316's as a complete set only and not mixed with the old!..... How many times have i said that???

Cheers