diesel rattle in D4D Prado

[JBL33 Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close JBL33]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

Good evening,

For information, even problem in France for KDJ120 D4D (Prado) 166 and 173 cv.
Toyota France changes without problem the 4 injectors even with much of kilometers.
Mine were changed 2 times, to 90.000 and 100.000 kms.
Now it has 112.000 kms and all is ok.

With the D4D, do you have preoccupations with a clutch on the model with limps mechanical 6 speeds?

you can see the preparation of my D4D on my Internet site, here (http://jbl33.com)

Salut JBL !

Nice to see you around 8) What you did on your Land Cruiser is really impressive !

Cheers from Aquitaine
/Fred

Bonjour Fred

Il me semble avoir déjà vu ce 120 (ton avatar) sur l'A63 en sortie de Bordeaux
Le monde est vraiment petit et peut-être aurons nous l'occasion de nous rencontrer en Aquitaine ou sur le continent Africain... :wink: , en attendant d'aller en Australie

Ce qui me rassure c'est qu'en Australie ils ont les mêmes souci que nous concernant les injecteurs du D4D 166 et 173cv.

Bien cordialement de Libourne

[FredMLC Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close FredMLC]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

Good evening,

For information, even problem in France for KDJ120 D4D (Prado) 166 and 173 cv.
Toyota France changes without problem the 4 injectors even with much of kilometers.
Mine were changed 2 times, to 90.000 and 100.000 kms.
Now it has 112.000 kms and all is ok.

With the D4D, do you have preoccupations with a clutch on the model with limps mechanical 6 speeds?

you can see the preparation of my D4D on my Internet site, here (http://jbl33.com)

Salut JBL !

Nice to see you around 8) What you did on your Land Cruiser is really impressive !

Cheers from Aquitaine
/Fred

Bonjour Fred

Il me semble avoir déjà vu ce 120 (ton avatar) sur l'A63 en sortie de Bordeaux
Le monde est vraiment petit et peut-être aurons nous l'occasion de nous rencontrer en Aquitaine ou sur le continent Africain... :wink: , en attendant d'aller en Australie

Ce qui me rassure c'est qu'en Australie ils ont les mêmes souci que nous concernant les injecteurs du D4D 166 et 173cv.

Bien cordialement de Libourne

JBL : je t'ai envoyé un PM 8) /Fred

[Matty80 Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Matty80]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

Good news it seems, got the car back from the dealer service centre and they have agreed that the injectors are bad.
Bad news is they haven't fixed the problem yet. Not to worry, they have offered the handbrake the loan car again for free and have all 4 replacement injectors on order (approx two weeks - if i remember correct)... So some light at the end of the tunnel!

Unfortunately, 80,000km service cost me $1184. Seems fairly rich to me, but i'm in another country - hard to argue from here!

But at least those little nasties that crop up with second hand cars are slowly getting sorted out.

[toddcpo Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close toddcpo]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

Hey guys and gals,
I think i am starting to re think the idea of getting a D4D and sticking with the older motor. Seems like alot of continuos hassle. Although, if its the colder weather thats the issue, you can always move north!! Just kidding.

I think i will keep an eye on this thread and see if toyota sort the issue out or weather it will be an ongoing problem.

[Nick Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Nick]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

Not to diminish the problems people posting here have had with injectors, I think you need to be careful not to conclude that all Prados will develop rattly engines with stuffed injectors. This forum is great to highlight such problems but you will inevitably get a skewed view on the prevalence of it simply because if people have Prados that are running well they may well not write in. They may not even be aware this site exists. Some people will join forums when they are looking for information about an issue/problem. If everything is fine, they may not bother. We still don't have a real feel for just how common this problem is. I know this forum has done surveys etc but again, you are only polling people who use this site and it is likely that owners with problems are over-represented here. I would have thought that if the problem is truly widespread Toyota would have done a recall or halted production until it is fixed, given the expense of fixing individual cars. I have not even read about this problem in any 4WD magazines and if the issue was a prevalent one, I would have thought some reviewer would warn about it somewhere. My own vehicle is 1 year old now (Sep 08 build, 15000k) and is running beautifully. It may develop the problem later, who knows. We have the 5 year warranty so we are not too concerned. I see a lot of D4Ds on the road around town, most quite a bit older than mine and I have never heard a rattly one yet (granted the engines would be warm for those cars when I come across them).

Think twice before dismissing this vehicle based on this particular issue. The D4D is a wonderful car. Quiet, comfortable, economical and spacious with huge range. If you do gor the D4D it would be worth paying a bit extra for the 5 year warranty.

[toddcpo Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close toddcpo]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

Nick,
By no means am i dismissing this vehicle, compared to Patrols which i have had ever since i began 4wding, I love the Prados. Granted i havent spent alot of time in them and thats why i am on this site to read as much as i can before buying. I know with the amount of D4Ds out there (and there are alot) that this is probably a small issue, however, I think it definitely warrants concern, especially when you are paying so much money for the joy of owning one of these vehicles, one would think that you should be able to do at least 40000 Ks without something like that going on. Sure diesel in this country and between fuel stations can differ abit and may be a little dirty and "may" be the cause or contribute to the problem, then again it could just be dodgy manufacturing of these items, I dont know.
What "I" was getting at is what i said above, If i am going to spend my hard earned dollars on a vehicle like this, even if it is 2nd hand with a small amount of Ks on the clock, I would expect there NOT to be these issues, so coming to this forum and seeing that quiet a few people are having the same issue is more than a coincidence and i think and warrants some second thoughts when looking at a D4D. Dont get me wrong, with the stats i have read in regards to the D4D, it is quiet impressive but i guess after seeing 40 odd pages of people having the same problem i am having second thoughts about the D4D and looking more towards to older motor.

I will be interested to see if the new Prado when it gets released develops this problem.
Anyway, thats my 2 cents worth.
Good luck to those who are currently having this problem.

[FredMLC Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close FredMLC]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

Not to diminish the problems people posting here have had with injectors, I think you need to be careful not to conclude that all Prados will develop rattly engines with stuffed injectors. This forum is great to highlight such problems but you will inevitably get a skewed view on the prevalence of it simply because if people have Prados that are running well they may well not write in. They may not even be aware this site exists. Some people will join forums when they are looking for information about an issue/problem. If everything is fine, they may not bother. We still don't have a real feel for just how common this problem is. I know this forum has done surveys etc but again, you are only polling people who use this site and it is likely that owners with problems are over-represented here. I would have thought that if the problem is truly widespread Toyota would have done a recall or halted production until it is fixed, given the expense of fixing individual cars. I have not even read about this problem in any 4WD magazines and if the issue was a prevalent one, I would have thought some reviewer would warn about it somewhere. My own vehicle is 1 year old now (Sep 08 build, 15000k) and is running beautifully. It may develop the problem later, who knows. We have the 5 year warranty so we are not too concerned. I see a lot of D4Ds on the road around town, most quite a bit older than mine and I have never heard a rattly one yet (granted the engines would be warm for those cars when I come across them).

Think twice before dismissing this vehicle based on this particular issue. The D4D is a wonderful car. Quiet, comfortable, economical and spacious with huge range. If you do gor the D4D it would be worth paying a bit extra for the 5 year warranty.

Hi Nick

Well said.

Even though I talked about my injector problem in this forum in order to share my experience, I can easily add that my almost 5 years old D4D 166HP with 135000k on the clock runs beautifully. I also purchased what Toyota call in Europe the "Extracare" (6 years/200000kms warranty) and I am happy I did it (injectors replaced).

Prados are wonderfull cars, this one my 3rd one : Had an LJ70 (2.4 Diesel Turbo), a KDJ95 (3.0 D4D 1KD FTV same engine as 120's) and now the KDJ120.

When time for replacement will come, I will definitely go for the new KDJ150 !

Have a nice day
/Fred

[ookami Member Find all posts View Profile Close ookami]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

Had an interesting conversation with a guy at my eldest's Auskick session on Sat. This guy works in the diesel injector business and knows all-too well of the problem.

His take on it is that the engine computer or more specifically the program that adjusts/controls the injection parameters can not vary its curve sufficiently enough to suit a wearing-in injector. As the injectors wear in, the various sensors try to detect the combustion process and fueling and then according to preset parameters the program attempts to adjust the various injection conditions (duration, timing etc). Apparently, the program has limited ability to vary the parameters and once the limits are reached (ie: injector wears beyond the program's ability to compensate), there is no more compensation. Also - apparently - the engine on light does not get turned on as the computer still thinks everything is in order.

New injectors need to have their code inputted into the engine's computer so the computer can map the injector's parameters to the program's curve and parameters and what parameter ranges are applicable.

The alarming problem is that the issue is not just related to pre-08 D4Ds....but the manufacturer tweaked the ECU program and provided a new more robust injector design from '08 onwards and it appears the problem is almost gone for those vehicles. Note....almost gone.

For those of you who have had the "reflash and come back in 500-1000kms time" - the computer reflash cannot alter the parameters enough - so people who get the "reflash" - only get marginally improved operational ranges for the injectors. The manuf knows this and knows in almost all cases - will not fix the problem but may extend the life of the injector. If the injector is beyond the tolerances of the reflas then the problem persists and then the only option is to replace the injector.

He told me a lot more info - but i wont bore you to death. I guess i take what was said as another view of the problem - albeit with some hands-on experience and knowledge.

Yes - bad fuel contributes to accelerated wearing of the injector and so does poor design of the injector and engine computer and fuel filter.

He thinks the next version of the D4D will have a brand spankin new computer program that will be able to be re-programmable - or tweakable a lot more and able to adjust operating parameters a whole lot more. When this is due he doesnt know. Maybe this will also open up opportunities for tweaking performance settings (so no longer a bolt-on or clip-on chip)....

cheers

Michael

I'm not sure how these modern aftermarkter Diesel "chip" style Ecus work (steinbauer etc), do they work by stopping the signal to the OEM ecu and using its own fuel maps settings and engine signals or by modifying the signal to the OEM ECU in order to change its fueling paramaters by sending it essentially false singals in order to obtain a desired affect? Just wondering if a diesel "chip" has any bearing/resolution on the problem.

PS you would be suprised what factory ECUs can be remapped so it is possible

[Fisher Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Fisher]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

After the usual( left overnight, cold start, reflash) local dealer agreed to replace all four plus high pressure pipes plus seals. First cold start at home this morning - good as new, quiet as a mouse. Sigh of relief, and full power back - mine started blowing black smoke a month ago. All fixed, hope for good.

[Sunday Member Find all posts View Profile Close Sunday]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

I had my late 2006 D4D auto GLX with 67000 kms in to the dealer today to get the tail shaft regreased (doin' the bump). While I was at it I mentioned the D4D (which I've just acquired) was a lot more rattley than my old 2003 diesel GX. Mind you, I don't think it was as rattley as the worst examples outlined in this thread, just noticeably more noisy than the supposedly unrefined donk it had replaced. Please note: I've owned a string of diesel Patrols so I'm familiar with many of the inherently coarse characteristics of many diesel motors (including rattle).

My rattle was more of an overly pronounced diesel rattle under normal driving (not just when cold). He immediately agreed the D4D was inherently noisier but suggested they could try the ECU re-flash while the vehicle was with them.

I picked it up this afternoon and it definately quieter, particularly under acceleration, say around 40 to 60 kms per hour. Interestingly in their post servicing write-up they identified the issue to test for as "diesel rattle around 60 kms" which I hadn't specifically volunteered myself. So perhaps the re-flash is a regular fix for a known pronounced "running temperature" rattle with the D4D rather than the cold start issue(?). Seems to have worked so far anyway. I'll review as the kms mount up...

Sunday

[Burgie Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Burgie]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

Well It pays to persevere. After the re-flash and being told to go away for 1000 klms, I went back to the dealer with the same problem. The car was booked in to take a snap shop of the engine management system to send to Toyota for assessment. The results took a few weeks to come back,then to my surprise I had a call from the dealer to book the car in as they had approval from Toyota to replace all the injectors and fuel lines.
HOORAY after months of complaining and jumping up and down they finally listened and have fixed it today (I hope :? )

[ntp Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close ntp]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

HOORAY after months of complaining and jumping up and down they finally listened and have fixed it today (I hope :? )

Burgie - what month is your 2008 GXL?

[Burgie Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Burgie]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

ntpryce
Ours is February 2008

[mjforder Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mjforder]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

ntpryce
Ours is February 2008

Glad to hear it was fixed - finally.

and there you have it.....a 2008 (current) model with the problem.

:cry:

[longdog Member Find all posts View Profile Close longdog]

Re: diesel rattle in D4D Prado

Now that's interesting - I thought I'd read earlier in this thread that current models were immune. Mine is a Dec08 compliance-plate model (which I think was Sept08 build). 25000km on the clock now, and no rattle apart from a noisier-than-normal rattle on cold morning start that goes away within about 30 seconds (when I say cold morning I'm talking sub-5degs most winter mornings here, sometimes sub-zero)... Up until now I've considered that that would be normal for any diesel, and have been sleeping comfortably under the assumption that my model was immune from this problem due to the newer type injectors installed at factory. Does anyone know from what build date the newer injectors were fitted at factory?