diesel rattle in D4D Prado

[Graceilyons64 Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Graceilyons64]

I have a good comeback for the Toyota Service Manager - DONT BELIEVE WHAT TOYOTA TELL YOU EITHER

[Heath74 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Heath74]

Just starting to move off topic a bit... But from a statistical sense aren't we starting to talk abut two groups here? I.e. those who have had injector issues and what the cost to that group is? Isn't there an entirely separate group? I.e. those who have not had injector issues?

In terms of random sampling, those who have had a specialist like John '##########' work on their car doesn't seem to be random to me?

However the majority of those who have chosen to join and enjoy prado point would seem to be a random sample to me. All that we really have in common is owning prados and computers?

[ntp Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close ntp]

I think these statistical arguments are going nowhere. What was that about statistics, statistics, damn lies and statistics?

The Roo suggested that 10% of relevant Prado owners are likely to experience injector failure costing more than $10K. Based on this logic, we should see a similar trend on Pradopoint - so AJ120's point is valid.

You can't simply use the numbers provided by The Roo as anything other than an observation based on his experience, similar to AJ120 using the Pradopoint experience. The people that went to see The Roo for help have done so because they wanted mechanical help. Of course he will see higher numbers of faults. Most people who go to the Doctors are sick, so you can't simply say that based on the ratio of sick persons who visit the Doctor that the overall population is unwell.

So if he's had 32 vehicles and 3 have been over $10 grand = 3/32 x 100 = 9.375% (rounded 10%). If you base his statistics on just the 32 cars been through his work shop with injector failure = 100% , I think you need to disregard the cost. Because it's the injector failure as a whole that needs to be accounted for, don't you think?

The Roo stated that he'd seen 32 cars with injector issues. This does not equate to 100% injector failure for relevant Prados. The Roo hasn't said how many overall cars he's serviced to determine an overall ratio against all the vehicles he's worked on. He just said of 32 with problems, 3 cost more than $10K to fix.

DOESNT IT MATTER THAT ONE PERSON has had this problem? Isnt it the responsibility of Toyota Australia to make it right????

It is flawed to suggest every mechanical fault is the responsibility of the manufacturer. I wish this were true.

It appears that there have been problems. It also appears that Toyota has made some changes to newer models. No one wants to see anyone's vehicle suffer repairs, especially expensive ones.

If you believe there is a common fault, or manufacturing defect, put your case to Toyota or engage a legal firm like Slater & Gordon to pursue a 'no win, no pay' class action.

What you also have to keep in mind is there are alot of people, like me who are not mechanically minded. But who take care & pride in owning a Toyota, we save up or take out loans to buy one . We have them regulary serviced, we take out insurance to protect them. But that's the extent.

A lot of the Pradopoint members would also fall into this category - so not sure of your point? None of us wants to see anyone with a Prado with faults. None of want to throw away money on expensive repairs. We would all happily support others as much as we can. This is not a 'you are either for or against' issue.

Just starting to move off topic a bit... But from a statistical sense aren't we starting to talk abut two groups here? I.e. those who have had injector issues and what the cost to that group is? Isn't there an entirely separate group? I.e. those who have not had injector issues?

In terms of random sampling, those who have had a specialist like John '##########' work on their car doesn't seem to be random to me?

However the majority of those who have chosen to join and enjoy prado point would seem to be a random sample to me. All that we really have in common is owning prados and computers?

Thank you Heath74 - you've nailed it in one.

[Graceilyons64 Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Graceilyons64]

A friend has had his out of warranty claim knocked back by Melville Toyota. His 2007 D4D was routinely serviced by Toyota and was rattling and blowing smoke. When his wife took it in and got them to look at the smoke they were not concerned and sent her home with a "she'll be right." After I had explained to my mate about the injector seal issue, he took it back, they popped the sump and low and behold the pickup screen was completely blocked. Now they reckon he will need a new engine because of the lack of lube to the pistons, etc. Originally they were going to pay, then when the damage became more obvious they wanted him to put up 50%. Now they won't pay a cent towards the repair. He is good friends with Stan Peron (had a lot to do with the introduction of Toyota to Australia) and going to seek his intervention.

An idea my friend has is to ask all PPers who have suffered the injector failure or engine failure to submit a statutory declaration that he will present in court. We'll see how he goes. I told him to join up with PP first.

Hi Dave,

I would be very interested in contributing my Statutory Declaration to be used in presenting it to Stan Peron. You can PM me, and we'll talk.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Hi Andrew,

Andrew - you cant make a statement basing statistic on the PP Forum. You are missing a wider group of people who havnt found PP, for one reason or another. Up until I had my problem I didnt know PP existed. My reasons below:

Sorry but I disagree, with statistics you simply need a large sample group, PP is as good a large sample group as those on this forum have access too. You don't need every single D4D owner in the country to get a guide as to how wide spred the problem is.

Remembering of course that I was specifically talking about major failures costing over 10 grand, if that figure was even remotely close to 10% we would not need to talk about this, we would be talking about 50 thousand or more cases of this in Australia alone. You went looking for answers after your issues and found PP, did you find thousands of people with issues like yours? No you found a handful.

Remember there are 2 issues here,

1. injectors needing to be replaced due to whatever reason. As I have stated before, changing injectors every 100 - 150 thou is common as dirt, this has been recomended practice for diesels since Adam was a lad, so if you have done over 100k and had to change injectors I see it as normal maintenance. Yes its expensive, but its still normal maintenance or at least has been considered this for decades.

2. Catastrohic failures, which happen but are rare, and maybe of few of those were self inflicted or due to ignoring an issue.

As other mechanics on this forum have posted, they see more issues with other brands of vehicles in there workshops than Toyotas, all vehicles have issues, the newer common rail diesels have more issues then the older counterparts, but governments legislate for emmissions and all sorts of other things, people at the same time demand more power for less fuel, something has to give; and it has with pretty much all Common rail motors.

Taking small samples such as you have proves nothing at all, take my 4wd club as a small group, we have multiple D4D powered vehicles and not a single one has any injector issues at all, so on that basis its zero percent failure rate, we have one owner of a 3.0L Nissan with a 300% failure rate of his engine having blown it up 3 times in 150 thou before throwing the nissan motor and fitting a Chev V8, does that mean that all D4D's are perfect and all nissans will blow up regularly, no it doesn't becasue the sample is too small.

DOESNT IT MATTER THAT ONE PERSON has had this problem? Isnt it the responsibility of Toyota Australia to make it right????

No its not Toyotas responsibility if the vehicle is out of warranty, it might be good PR if they pay, it might even be good business sense, I don't know, but its not their responsibilty if the warranty has expeired. Has any company ever produces a perfect product? NO! what about the older deisel Prados that are prone to crack the odd head or 2, should Toyota pay for that as well, nobody seems to think so, it s just one of those things that sometimes happens to a particular motor.

Cheers Andrew

[ntp Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close ntp]

we have one owner of a 3.0L Nissan with a 300% failure rate of his engine having blown it up 3 times in 150 thou before throwing the nissan motor and fitting a Chev V8, does that mean that all D4D's are perfect and all nissans will blow up regularly, no it doesn't becasue the sample is too small.

Although... I think you might be onto something here AJ120

[Graceilyons64 Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Graceilyons64]

I think these statistical arguments are going nowhere. What was that about statistics, statistics, damn lies and statistics?

The Roo suggested that 10% of relevant Prado owners are likely to experience injector failure costing more than $10K. Based on this logic, we should see a similar trend on Pradopoint - so AJ120's point is valid.

You can't simply use the numbers provided by The Roo as anything other than an observation based on his experience, similar to AJ120 using the Pradopoint experience. The people that went to see The Roo for mechanical help have done so because there wanted mechanical help. Of course he will see higher numbers of faults. Most people who go to the Doctors are sick, so you can't simply say that based on the ratio of sick persons who visit the Doctor that the overall population is unwell.


The Roo stated that he'd seen 32 cars with injector issues. This does not equate to 100% injector failure for relevant Prados. The Roo hasn't said how many overall cars he's serviced to determine an overall ratio against all the vehicles he's worked on. He just said of 32 with problems, 3 cost more than $10K to fix.


It is flawed to suggest every mechanical fault is the responsibility of the manufacturer. I wish this were true.

It appears that there have been problems. It also appears that Toyota has made some changes to newer models. No one wants to see anyone's vehicle suffer repairs, especially expensive ones.

If you believe there is a common fault, or manufacturing defect, put your case to Toyota or engage a legal firm like Slater & Gordon to pursue a 'no win, no pay' class action.


A lot of the Pradopoint members would also fall into this category - so not sure of your point? None of us wants to see anyone with a Prado with faults. None of want to throw away money on expensive repairs. We would all happily support others as much as we can. This is not a 'you are either for or against' issue.


Thank you Heath74 - you've nailed it in one.

Dear NTP,

Firstly -I am not suggesting that all problems with vehicles are the fault of Toyota. Please do not take what I say out of context. I am pushing this problem because it is a manufacturing fault.

Secondly - Im also not saying this is a you and us discussion - Please do not take what I say out of context. My point I was trying to make is.

Not everyone has reported this problem for various reasons:

They are not aware of the forum on this identified issue, therfore are unaware of the wealth of knowledge that is shared

They are not all mechanically educated, like some of you are, and consumers believe what they are being told by the Service Managers. So they suck it up and pay up.

They are not avid car followers that I am assuming PP members are, so I am not stating that PP members do not take care or treasure their vehicle any less or more than I do.

Up until this injector problem occured to myself and my partner, we were never aware of Prado Point, Landcruiser Club, Toyota Club or 'Oh What a Feeling, A Lemon' sites until my partners employer informed him after experiencing the same problem with his Landcruiser 100 series. After my partners disgruntled attitude brought on by Toyota, and their attitude towards the issue. He started quering other Toyota 4WD owners who frequent a very large Hardware/Trade business in the Adelaide Hills Region; i.e trade persons, farmers and general 4WD enthusiasts, six out of the 30 Toyota owners have experienced the same issue 'Injector Failure'. Wherby Toyota has either met them 1/2 way with a short motor, (as described by the Roo) or have just laid the blame on Fuels, servicing or lack there of on the consumers. Therby blatently washed their hands of the injector failure all together.

If my partner can find 6 out of 30 (in a 3 week period) D4D Toyota owners please do the arithmetic. How many people would come forward with the same issue if this 'Injector Failure' was gazetted nationally?

How many more Toyota D4D owners would come forward, who have paid for a short motor + parts or paid for a replacement of a reconditioned engine or have paid for new injectors. But more importantly why do Toyota Service Departments/Dealerships recommend replacing at the cost of $20,000 + a complete reconditioned motor to the consumer? Why can other registered mechanics recommend taking off the head to identify clearly the issud to the whole engine effected by the injector failure. Toyota mechnics cant be bothered because they say "We dont want to give you anymore unecessary costs, in our opinion we know that there your engine is stuffed". So my questions is this - What happens to the consumers engine that blew? Do they recondition it and sell it on? They not only make $20 grand + but they also make money on the consumers stuffed engine (by reconditioning it) and selling it on?

YES THE STATISTICS ARE A WASTE OF TIME - for now; until all Toyota Consumers have the opportunity to come forward and state their case.

With regard to taking class action - yes, a great idea. Anyone want to join me. I'll bet there are lawyers on PP who would lead the way.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

After my partners disgruntled attitude brought on by Toyota, and their attitude towards the issue. He started quering other Toyota 4WD owners who frequent a very large Hardware/Trade business in the Adelaide Hills Region; i.e trade persons, farmers and general 4WD enthusiasts, six out of the 30 Toyota owners have experienced the same issue 'Injector Failure'. Wherby Toyota has either met them 1/2 way with a short motor, (as described by the Roo) or have just laid the blame on Fuels, servicing or lack there of on the consumers. Therby blatently washed their hands of the injector failure all together.

If my partner can find 6 out of 30 (in a 3 week period) D4D Toyota owners please do the arithmetic. How many people would come forward with the same issue if this 'Injector Failure' was gazetted nationally?

If you really believe the issue is as wide spread as those figures suggest then why are you wasting your time on a forum? As suggested, go and see a lawyer, Toyota is a big company with access to a lot of money, if its that bad the lawyers will be fighting each other to take this case on.

The simple fact is that the figures on this forum don't equate to what you are reporting. Its interesting that you also report a 100 series with major issues, these are regarded as one of the most bullet proof vehicles ever manufactured by anyone ever, yet when in Beachport the week before last years GTG I spoke to a 100 series owner who showed me a cracked piston from his engine that had just been rebuilt, even the best of the best have issues from time to time.

Cheers Andrew

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Andrew I generally agree that the statistics don't support the notion that injector failure leading to complete engine failure is widespread. However how many are in the same position as me? If I hadn't insisted on getting the feedback values I would have been oblivious. I defy anyone to diagnose my D4D as having two dodgy injectors. Smooth idle, no smoke, no death rattle. Feedback values on two injectors >7. The service guys told me there was no need to check. I reckon there are quite a few engines that have worn injectors that have gone unnoticed. I had a test look at a 150 today. Guess what it sounded just like my 120. Side by side, same same.

Only Toyota knows and they have a vested interest in keeping it quiet or finding algae or dirt in the fuel tanks.

Right now I will be getting the injectors fixed under extended warranty and then passing the car along. If for some reason that is denied I will see if I can get Roo to do the same and again get rid of the car. I will not hide the fact that it has had two injectors replaced. Looking at the 150 today it will be ok for what I want and I am now reading all the relevant guff on the 150 so I can decide what is best for us. I don't have the confidence to keep the 120 another 2 years. Bear in mind being a Nov 07 engine in a Dec 07 build I am running an injector Toyota used for two months production only.

So for those of us fighting Toyota can we get all our documents together to fight the best fight we can? And if your D4D is coming up to its 80k service get the injector feedback values read and establish a baseline reading.

Oh and my injectors are payback for putting a Patrol fanboy down at Christmas, he giggled when he saw my 120. His was a mega machine with 4" lift, 33" muddies and all the accoutrements. Mine was legal. When he pointed to the poxy BFG A/Ts in 275/65 17s he asked if I would consider putting some decent 4wd tyres on. And a lift (legal 2" thanks). I asked him how many engines had he been through? 3, 4, or 5? He shut up pretty quickly as it was on its 3rd hand grenade.

[Graceilyons64 Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Graceilyons64]

"If you really believe the issue is as wide spread as those figures suggest then why are you wasting your time on a forum? As suggested, go and see a lawyer, Toyota is a big company with access to a lot of money, if its that bad the lawyers will be fighting each other to take this case on"

Andrew,

Im not waisting time, Im collecting information. I'm listenning to other PP members, I've read every post within this thread - which took me hours....I'm making sure that I have the relevant information before I act.

And yes, I agree there is not enough reported cases of injector failure on this site.... Have you read everyone's posting?

This forum is great for a lot of reasons. The diversity of what is discussed here is very interesting (and Im not just talking about mechanical problems here).

Anyway thanks for your input

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

Sorry but I disagree, with statistics you simply need a large sample group, PP is as good a large sample group as those on this forum have access too.

This is not quite how statistics work. A large sample is not automatically a representative or random sample. There may be biases involved, for example this forum or Roo's customers may be more likely to have or notice an injector problem. If we ignore that then we can work out a sample size.

My statistics are a bit rusty and I've probably over simplified but here goes:

I'm not sure how many of the relevant D4D engines have been sold in Australia, but let's say 115000 (Prado only?). Then to get a +/-2% failure rate that we are 95% certain is accurate we need a sample size of 2352. If you want to be 99% certain you need a sample size of 4015.

Assuming 11500 Prados, a sample of 32 gives you a 95% chance of predicting the failure rate with an accuracy of +/-17% and a 99% chance of predicting the failure rate to +/-22%.

Probably not what people want to see and not what I expected, generally statistics/facts and emotions don't mix well. You could run a poll, but I'm guessing that on the internet you're probably more likely to get responses from people who have or know about the problem.

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

I will try and keep this breif as I am sure everyone is sick of reading massive posts.

Statistics, yes PP is not a perfectly random sample group and there fore some bias will be found, but its the best large sample I am aware of that every member reading this site has access too, and the numbers here dont support the argument of 10% catastrophic failure, argue all you want by supplying statistics from your own experience that no one else can veryify; but it doesn't change the fact that the numbers here dont stack up.

Anyone who thinks that everything and everyone on this site or any other site is posting the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth is living in fantasy land. Whilst I think the vast majority of people post what they believe to be true not everyone does, and not everyone even with the best of intentions is correct, so you can't believe everything you read here. I believe Admin of this site are aware of at least one very high profile member who was running a second account and having conversations with himself!

All I want to see here is something resembling the truth being posted, 10% is not supported by anything that anyone can produce that can be verified.

Whats really interesting is to read about this subject on other forums, without people running a crusade, its a totally different vibe!

Cheers Andrew

[mcfisherclan Member Find all posts View Profile Close mcfisherclan]

Andrew,
Where are these other forums that are talking about this topic differently that you speak off? i know this will not change your opinion at all, but... I have owned a D4D, my father bought one because he liked mine, and we have 2 friends with one each. thats 4 for those at home. Luckily i found this thread that was serious about this issue. The reason ALL 4 cars have injector issues, kms ranging from 52k to 200k, age ranging from late 06 to early 09. All service history excellent. 2 of the cars have had the mechanic state that if the problem had not been asked to be investigate there is a very genuine chance of full engine replacement.

I know 5 families with Prados, 4 diesel and 1 petrol. All 4 diesels have issues. thats 100% failure rate. Now 3 of them would not have even known to ask to have this issue looked at if i hadnt put them onto it. 2 of them on the verge of complete detonations. How many people are driving around in undiagnosed timebombs? how does that factor into your 10% figure?

How many other $60k brand new cars do you know of that require additional cost of $3k every 4 years? basically toyota australia are saying that its ok that you need to replace a $3k+ component every 100k kms. Is that ok?

[Heath74 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Heath74]

Mcfisherclan, that's a night mare run, you guys must be really frustrated. On the other hand I only know of 5 d4ds none of which have had issues ranging from 90 to 150 k in.

At 110 k myself I'm leaning towards replacing, not happy about the cost but not sure there's much to that can be done, as has been discussed injectors don't last for ever.

[outback7 Banned Find all posts View Profile Close outback7]

I will try and keep this breif as I am sure everyone is sick of reading massive posts.

Statistics, yes PP is not a perfectly random sample group and there fore some bias will be found, but its the best large sample I am aware of that every member reading this site has access too, and the numbers here dont support the argument of 10% catastrophic failure, argue all you want by supplying statistics from your own experience that no one else can veryify; but it doesn't change the fact that the numbers here dont stack up.




Anyone who thinks that everything and everyone on this site or any other site is posting the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth is living in fantasy land. Whilst I think the vast majority of people post what they believe to be true not everyone does, and not everyone even with the best of intentions is correct, so you can't believe everything you read here. I believe Admin of this site are aware of at least one very high profile member who was running a second account and having conversations with himself!

All I want to see here is something resembling the truth being posted, 10% is not supported by anything that anyone can produce that can be verified.

Whats really interesting is to read about this subject on other forums, without people running a crusade, its a totally different vibe!

Cheers Andrew

I have read your posts with interest, I have to say I am really sick of your snide comments re: other members. Just post something that of benefit to the reader and leave it that.