diesel rattle in D4D Prado

[azprado Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close azprado]

Hey guys,

Some great info on this site, just thought I would mention for those of you looking for a cheap Inspection cam option you can pickup a 2.4" one from JAYCAR for about $70 smaller screen but cheap.

Part Number for those interested is: QC8714

[ToeEdge Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ToeEdge]

I've got the Supercheap camera.... and no, it doesn't fit through the sump hole. However, you can still view the pickup with the camera through the hole. Here are some pics of my pickup using the camera -

[outback7 Banned Find all posts View Profile Close outback7]

Great post........Toyota Australia have certainly lost the plot.

[Graceilyons64 Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Graceilyons64]

AT LAST I CAN SPEAK - D4D Prado Engine Failure

To do with the blow by problem, I just want you to know a few simple facts about having a legal argument with Toyota Australia.
In the event of a catastrophic failure it is Toyota Australia's fault for one big reason. They are supposed to change out the seats to the new design ones especially when they are doing a valve clearance check. My understanding is that it is part of the procedure and that comes from the top, Toyota Motor Corporation themselves. This listening to the valve clearances is a load of rubbish as you cannot beat a feeler gauge for checking the valve clearances.
Toyota Australia has a responsibility to educate the wider mechanical industry about this problem so it can be fixed before an event happens. Prevention is king with this issue Toyota Australia and Robert Marsh, as I know you read this forum and other forums. In legal terms it's called duty of care and eventally, the ACCC will have to look at these issues because the pressure is growing from consumers. So why don't you release a bulletin to all ABN holders in the mechanical industry so something positive can be done about the problem. There are simple solutions you see Mr. Robert Marsh as you sit there and watch these big out and inside warranty situations roll in. You know, some advise from me to you if you haven't all ready got that yet. As I know you are pretty slow on the up take there sitting in your office as you ruin people's lives and Toyota's reputation (that's my opinion) with your decisions that sometimes you make.
It's a global market now because of computers, so if Toyota UK or say New Zealand release a bulletin then we all know about it. As in what happened in Spain as well. This makes your legal argument nothing. One day, there is going to be a high profile case against you, could be one of the dealerships that haven't been paid by your organisation for the warranty work they did. Or it could be a consumer that you have left broken down in the middle of nowhere with no solution to the problems in site. My prediction is sooner than later, and it's going to be on your head sir. I wonder if TMC know how you treat consumers Mr. Robert Marsh here in Australia? Hmmm..... never the less, it's going to hit the fan in a big way soon for you and Toyota Australia, that's my opinion.
Happy reading ah, Robert.

The Roo or John.

Hi all, Im SHARON (the one Roos been talking about); Im from SA regional and have had a recent disaster :cry:. Which like everyone else led me to google the probelm, isnt technology amazing!

Mid December I was driving my Toyota Prado D4D 120 home, just pulled up at the lights and the car started to chug like a tractor. You can imagine, my thoughts 'What the heck' Progressed further through town, same thing happens everytime I stopped. I got half way down the main drag to our property, and the oil light comes on, I lose acceleration, the car is now staggering; of its own accord into my street. I managed to get off the 80k zone and rolled into my street leading to the property. All of a sudden I lost all control of the car, all of the lights on the dash going berserk (looked like a aeroplane cock-pit), the card stopped (turned itself off).

Now I just had my 130K service. RAA man came to my rescue (God Bless him) and after the car had sat for 1/2 hour the RAA man checked my oil, and I had only 5mm at the end of the dip stick (way below the lowest level indicator), he said "that's not good". Meanwhile, Im thinking OMG this is going to be bad...... you know when you get that vibe from a mechanic...lol He turned over the engine, she starts up, again sounding like a tractor, he says "I'll arrange to tow it to a mechanic for you...." Beeds of pespiration are now appearing on my forhead....:shock: Now I know Im in real trouble. Well it went to Toyota and sat for a few days.... and they'd assured me they would call next day. Well, they didnt..I had to chase them up.

My partner and I went to visit the Service Mgr. And was told that there was a possible injector failure and its caused by bad fuel, not driver deliberate.. I did have to sign a form to allow them to investigate the problem further. The Service Mgr. said my cost to replace all 4 injectors will be $4,000 and worst case scenario $10,000. I won't tell you the story you've heard it all before

Well since that point I have been toing & froing from Toyota, to no avail. They let me borrow a loan car for a week. I went back to see the Service Mgr - and he told me my engine was broken beyond repair, throw it away and put a reconditioned engine or a new motor. It would be cheaper for you to just put in a new engine, and the cost is around $20,000. Im having heart failure by this time. He went on to say that he would put in a GOODWILL request, as he had a customer recently with a Sahara same problem (out of warranty - 120k's) and Sydney Head office approved the repair - at no cost to the customer. He puffed himself up and said - "I fought for 3 months to get this for my customer", I'm thinking GREAT - I told him to put his gloves on for me too. The Service Mgr then said 'I'll fight for you all the way, as long as it takes". He's resigned from Toyota, last week. Hmph....FAMOUS LAST WORD - Coward!!!!

Anyway - I sent a letter to Toyota Head Office to the 'CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE DEPARTMENT'. Mind you the letter was sent in a distressed state of mind.... a tad harsh Within a couple of days I got a call from a 'Customer Experience Consultant' Rob Marsh, the conversation lasted 3 minutes. He said that "Toyota Australia have rejected my repair claim, YOU DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO (Small Claims Court), and NO; I wont answer your questions in the letter and by the way the Dealership wants there car returned by 5pm today". Now, people I have an extraordinary situation. I have a DVO against my X husband, this is my second move to seek peace and quite enjoyment. I also live in a rural area, which necessitates having a vehicle - there are no buses. Head Office was aware of this before Mr Marsh gave his ruling - so my customer experience was a zero. These are the questions I asked him:

1. In relation to the inspection report (attached).
a. My understanding is an identified injector failure – is this correct?
2. How often should the injectors be serviced?
3. Would you be able to point out to me where that is stated in the owner’s maintenance manual?
4. Why hasn’t Toyota Australia contacted me with relevant information to the injector failures?
5. If Europe & New Zealand Toyota are aware of injector problems and have recalled cars to fix these problems, Why is Toyota Australia not doing the same?


Harmless questions - warrant an answer.

After my nasty dealings with Mr Marsh, I decided that Toyota Australia are not going to fix my car. I arranged to get it towed back to the property. I also received in addition to my parts, someone elses radiator shrowed & engine shrowed. My car came back with a flat battery (which was purchased at time of 120K service). I have got a picture to show you my injector no. 3

[Graceilyons64 Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Graceilyons64]

The SAGA continues........

I know nothing about engines or cars - but since I've been on this sight I have become self aware. The Roo & Harros have been excellent tutors. So with that I went equipped to see the Head Mechanic, his best advice was that it costs $115.00 per hour to investigate a problem (probably a full day)- it is my recommendation that you replace the engine with a new one. He also said that he was extremely upset that Mr Robert Marsh spoke to me this way, and he would follow the matter up. He did say that Toyota Australia had sent out a bulletin to replace & service injectors for vehicles coming in for routine service and said it had a cut off date. I asked if he wouldnt mind giving me a copy of that, his reply was "I will have to check with the Principal, I could get into trouble". Dash it! The head mechanic did say alot but didnt if you know what I mean.

This is what the Service Mgr wrote -

28.12.12

Hi Sharon,
As per our telephone conversation we can, to the best of our knowledge confirm the following :-
1. Injector nozzle (assembly) number 3 has failed
2. Damage has then been caused to the piston/cylinder number 3 due to the injector failing
3. Feedback values for the injectors are 1 (2.2) 2 (-1.8) 3 (-5.0) 4 (3.1)
We can see by looking into the top of the cylinder that damage has been caused and believe the best and cheapest option to repair is to replace the engine assembly. There maybe possible turbo damage also if metal particles have exited the engine and gone out through the turbo.
Without further diagnostic and testing (which would be at your expense unfortunately) we can’t confirm this 100%.
The approximate cost to replace the engine and turbo including oils and sundries is $20,000.00
If we were to overhaul the engine the labour cost alone to do this is approximately $5000 excluding parts and oils. But we may then find that there is more damage, and the engine would need replacing anyway.
It is impossible to tell the stress the other 3 injectors have had due to trying to compensate for number 3 failing so a future failure may also occur causing the same outcome.
From the tests we have done we can confirm that an injector has failed but this could just be down to normal ‘wear and tear’ as the vehicle is now 6 years old. A manufacturing defect, if there was one would have caused a failure a long time ago.
Just to let you know the car was first sold in 2007, I brought the car 2009 at 53K's. At time of break down, I had 138K's on the clock, so my engine is young. As of the 14th of December my car was still 5 years old. It has had regular services with a registered business mechanic. I brought this car in GOOD FAITH.

I intend to fight Toyota , I cannot afford to fix my car - it will sit until Toyota Pay up. I intend to take this to small claims court and stick it to them [nicely]. Since this problem I have been warning everyone I see with a Toyota Prado & Hilux - the movement is on in the country region. People are going to the Dealerships with their vehicles. - and checking on the injectors. My partner has 2 people he knows personally at work who have had the same problem that's 2 out of 20 people. Both had to pay for new engines - one in warranty & one out of warranty.

DOES THIS SEEM FAIR - NO this is what Toyota quotes

I apologize for the long winded story

Toyota Promise
Nothing is so good that it cannot be made better. That is why we strive for constant improvement in everything we do. We have a word for it: Kaizen. It means continuous improvement, and it is the key principle that guides us in our commitment to deliver more to our customers.

Come on Australians - Let's pull together and make people aware. It's not right that unsuspecting drivers are paying for a problem that is a manufaturing fault. If all of us got together and put forward a civil action - Wow, not everyone can afford to replace their engines. Like me.

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

That's not good news. Mine detonated at 73,000km @ 3.5 years old. Lucky I had extended warranty so the replacement short engine and 2 new injectors cost $11,800. They charged me for a new fuel filter and a battery.

Somebody needs to get onto CHOICE, just like the recent story of the guy that bought a Korean made Holden Cruze and has had 3 years of ongoing repairs. Finally Holden replaced his car with a brand new Australian built Cruze at no cost. There is a collusion amongst Toyota Australia and most dealers where they deny any and all problems, routinely blaming incorrect (non-Toyota) servicing and their favourite scapegoat - dirty fuel.

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

Oh, forgot the wise words of the service manager at Goldfields Toyota. He told me "don't believe what you read on the internet."

[harro Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close harro]

A great summary of the situation, ##########. Good luck with your fight, Sharon. Be prepared for a long battle but one in which you should be successful. With the problem of injector seals acknowledged by Toyota overseas it is difficult to understand why Toyota Australia is not advising all prado owners of the issue. They have a responsibility to do this. I feel that a court would also take this view. I believe that for this reason Toyota would not allow a case to actually reach court as there would be a high chance that the court would rule that the original injectors and seals were unsuitable for the purpose and also that Toyota was liable for not informing the owner of potential problems. If the court were to rule in this way then a precedent would be established and Toyota could not take this risk. In my case, Toyota settled with me as the magistrate was reading through the material that I had prepared.

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

I have 3 work associates with D4D failures including one with complete engine failure and 2 with injector seal failure, one of these currently trying to get a new engine whilst out of warranty. I have 2 friends with injector seal failure. I also have a friendly mechanic who is into the double figures on D4D injector failures including at least 4 engines. These are all Kalgoorlie vehicles and doesn't include the PPer who trashed his 2012 150 engine last year at 20,000km.
All the fleet vehicles out here in the mining world are diesels, everyone of them, so I think Roo your estimates are extremely modest at 30% sales being diesels. But that's still a lot of money in anyone's terms and Toy Aus are only in it for the money so we would need a pretty big stick to get some affirmative action.

[Riv39 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Riv39]

Roo, I was informed that 80% of 150's sold are diesel. Driving around Sydney I would believe this as I see very few V6 models.

It is a concern to see this happening to the current 150 model as this would indicate that the new design seals and injectors has not fixed the design fault.

[rhs58 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close rhs58]

I also had the impression that way over 50% of Prados sold were diesels.
I can't argue with your estimate that 10% of D4D's catastrophically fail (over $10k repairs). I wouldnt know.
What % of D4D's do you reckon will get the rattle, blocked oil pickup screen and need injectors, seats etc swapped out.
I personally know of a few that Toyota has fixed under warranty, or been fixed by owners out of warranty.
Whatever the stats, these %'s must have Toyota concerned. Hard to believe that they and many dealers service depts say they don't know of or deny there's problems and seem to fob off customers concerns.
But still must be a fairly large majority of D4D's out there in HiLux's, Prado's, etc that have been going ok since ?2005 without problems, done big km by now, and just having the 10,000km services.
My confidence in Toyota and my Prado is shaken, and I had considered trading to something else - but nothing else ticks as many boxes for me as my Prado.
So keep it I will, change oil and filter every 5000km, inspect oil pickup screen every oil change, and save my $ towards changing out the injectors at 130-150000km. Unless it starts rattling sooner. And still costs less than trading to something else.

[pjorek Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close pjorek]

Toyota Australia will come put during an Oprah special aka Lance Armstrong style

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

A friend has had his out of warranty claim knocked back by Melville Toyota. His 2007 D4D was routinely serviced by Toyota and was rattling and blowing smoke. When his wife took it in and got them to look at the smoke they were not concerned and sent her home with a "she'll be right." After I had explained to my mate about the injector seal issue, he took it back, they popped the sump and low and behold the pickup screen was completely blocked. Now they reckon he will need a new engine because of the lack of lube to the pistons, etc. Originally they were going to pay, then when the damage became more obvious they wanted him to put up 50%. Now they won't pay a cent towards the repair. He is good friends with Stan Peron (had a lot to do with the introduction of Toyota to Australia) and going to seek his intervention.

An idea my friend has is to ask all PPers who have suffered the injector failure or engine failure to submit a statutory declaration that he will present in court. We'll see how he goes. I told him to join up with PP first.

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

I also had the impression that way over 50% of Prados sold were diesels.
I can't argue with your estimate that 10% of D4D's catastrophically fail (over $10k repairs). I wouldnt know.
What % of D4D's do you reckon will get the rattle, blocked oil pickup screen and need injectors, seats etc swapped out.
I personally know of a few that Toyota has fixed under warranty, or been fixed by owners out of warranty.
Whatever the stats, these %'s must have Toyota concerned. Hard to believe that they and many dealers service depts say they don't know of or deny there's problems and seem to fob off customers concerns.
But still must be a fairly large majority of D4D's out there in HiLux's, Prado's, etc that have been going ok since ?2005 without problems, done big km by now, and just having the 10,000km services.
My confidence in Toyota and my Prado is shaken, and I had considered trading to something else - but nothing else ticks as many boxes for me as my Prado.
So keep it I will, change oil and filter every 5000km, inspect oil pickup screen every oil change, and save my $ towards changing out the injectors at 130-150000km. Unless it starts rattling sooner. And still costs less than trading to something else.

I am with you on wanting to keep the Prado and will do all I can to keep her going. But remember one thing - my car never rattled. It just stalled. Then, when I had checked over everything under the bonnet, as I tried to restart the engine it made the most horrendous clatter and blew a ton of white smoke. There was no warning signs at all so you may never know it's coming. That's the bit that worries me when I go more than 50km from home.

[Gone Bush Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Gone Bush]

I just want to say this as plain as I can, trying not to upset the 120 owners. Most of the problems are happening in the 120 models and not the 150 models. It's uncommon in the 150s, and there as been enough time now for the 150 fleet to have a number of high km vehicles out there now as well. Riv mate, your vehicle is the best series of 1KDs out there, and is quite different to the series (1KD) that is found in the 120s. This also includes late model 120s as well, the difference that is.
Dave, most people do get a bit of a warning, at least with the injectors. The title of this now hugh thread. I have now seen and heard of a few cases like yours. I am actually working on one right now that is owned by a diesel fitter and he had no warnings with his vehicle. A 2009, just like yours mate. Number 1 injector completely failed at just over 100,000 kms. The vehicle also had signs of the blow by, not bad but it was there. Number 3, and here's the thing, this vehicle had the old seats installed in it from factory. It also had the latest version of injectors in it, the 23670-39316s, go figure that one out. So the question must be asked, what happened at the 80,000 km service and the valve clearance check with Toyota Service out his way at Mt. Isa?
I am sorry about your friend coping the rejection on the claim, probably from that Robert Marsh. That's who Stan Peron needs to talk to, Robert Marsh. Before he destroys Toyota Australia's reputation totally in this area.
There are members on this forum that would think that it's lead by me. Well, that's simple not true. It has been lead and will be lead by the consumer, the people that have to pay for these repairs. All I do is help when I can with the relevant information for whatever might happen. As I have said before, I don't like injustices. Get him to contact me Dave, and I will help him. I will send you a PM and we will take it from there. Sounds like the dealership has breached their duty of care to him, Dave.
To do with the figures that I have quoted on those stats there, I went very conservative because of the doubters of these problems on this forum and for legal reasons. As you seen with that barney that happened last week in between AJ120 and myself.
This thread is an excellent example of this : http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...nance-measures
So you can do the sums on 50% if you want. The point is that it's a lot of money at stack here, and that's what I wanted to point out.
RHS58, keep your Prado mate, you are just going to have to do the maintenance just like any other vehicle, they all have their liitle dark secrets especially when it comes to the CRD engines. To keep the cost down it will be a good idea to learn how to do the injectors in this particular model, the KDJ120 models that is. It's going to pay to learn how to do it with the 150s as well, all be for different reasons. This will save you thousands if you learn it. I think it's going to be a good idea to keep an eye out on the range for the injectors, every 50,000 kms. That's just hooking them to a diagnostic tool and making sure they are in range.
There is nothing out there quite like the diesel Prados, and they are still one of the most flexible for use vehicles out there. The best touring vehicle in my mind. We just have this problem we all need to deal with as owners, and then get on with whatever we want to do with our vehicles. That's why it is being discussed on this forum after all because that is the function partly of this website. I think it's called communication.
The Roo.

Roo - this subject of the D4D's is huge given the other related posts on PP. Given the multitude of information on PP there seems to also be some misinformation.

Somewhere in the testament according to those who know about Prado's, it was inferred that the the injector issue was mainly related to Prado's up to around 2008 and after this point Toyota changed the injectors to the better ones.

However reading the many posts in this thread this does not seem to be the case. I have a June 2009 120 which was near the end of the 120 series. It has done 75,000km and yes against your advices I have your friends Chip in it.

So now like others I am concerned and am gaining very useful information from this site as to what I can do to preserve my investment including adding the extra fuel filter. However would you mind clarifying from your experience as to whether the majority of the D4D issues are in the earlier model Prado's and to a lesser extent in the later versions (and I understand some 150's have come up with an issue). Also when did Toyota change to the new injectors in the D4D.?

Also does anyone know the author of this survey I found on the net about the 120 as I haven't found any reference to it on PP?
http://www.esurveyspro.com/Survey.as...b-b1bd3a7f5d20