Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

[DocK Member Find all posts View Profile Close DocK]

Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

Just a quick note for those interested in numbers - on dyno torque at the wheels gas off = 350Nm, gas on 440Nm. KW at the wheels gas off = 82Kw gas on = 98Kw. I still think that is better than a chip - I would really like to do both but I am bit worried about the EGT which means I would need a larger dump pipe and bigger exhaust system and a few more spare dollars. Mmmm that would be a nice Xmas present

[mjforder Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mjforder]

Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

Michael, very interesting! Wonder how the diesel/gas supplier/installer gets around this issue in SA where it was installed? Well, I can always switch it off on the road and use it off the road for the extra grunt it provides. Got some photos of the install but cant work out how to post these - sorry.

Dock - can you pm me the details of your installer? Unfortunately - the less scrupolous ones tend to turn a blind eye to the legality issue. i even confronted a big name supplier at the 4WD show at the Marion racecourse a couple of months ago. they were proudly presenting their stuff and i queietly soaked it all up (playing ignornat) - and then i hit them with a question about supplying the certificate of compliance for the install and certificate of conformity for the equipment. needless to say, they were a little perplexed that i actually knew what they were! suffice to say - eventually they owned up and said - yes we recognise the installation of anything is not illegal - its your responsibility (as the vehicle's driver) to ensure it is registered and legal. i would love to bounce that past a lawyer....hence my letter to Canberra. it cant be a good idea for Canberra to partially sponsor what is really an illegal practice - but they did state that registration is governed by each state (not federal) - and basically it is up to the owner etc to ensure their vehicle is compliant.

the place where i was booked in told me they couldnt certify it and suggested i didnt get it done. now that's an honest place. that said, they were happy to do it but just mentioned that its my risk on insurance and defect risk. hence my journey!

[DocK Member Find all posts View Profile Close DocK]

Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

Michael - just checked under the bonnet - certificate of compliance on the firewall with all Australian codes and standards listed. That should be OK from a legality point of view.

[mjforder Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mjforder]

Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

Michael - just checked under the bonnet - certificate of compliance on the firewall with all Australian codes and standards listed. That should be OK from a legality point of view.

well, that's bizzare....can you pls pm me the name of the place where you got it done???!!!

[DocK Member Find all posts View Profile Close DocK]

Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

A photo of the install - I hope! Still working on how to get some more on if you need some.



Post edited to show image. Mod

[mjforder Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mjforder]

Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

yeah, looks good! how big was the LPG tank they put in (litres, length & diam)?

[McBAIN Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close McBAIN]

Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

yeah, looks good! how big was the LPG tank they put in (litres, length & diam)?

I'd be keen to see some stats too! i take it the original tanks remain in place, what's total fuel load now, mix ratio, economy difference and how far does the tank take you when loaded up? and any change in clearance?

all that stuff!

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Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

OK = hope that this helps. No change to diesel - 180L total as per normal. The LPG is 26L tank so small for an LPG tank. The mix ratio is supposed to be 4:1 but I think mine is more like 10:1. I have not really been monitoring the fuel consumption but when I did it was 9L/100 of diesel and 1L/100 LPG. Off LPG 11L/100. I really did it for the performance gain not the economy. The gas cuts off depending on throttle settings engine speed etc so often if I am just bumbling along it is not using any LPG at all so it lasts a lot longer than I expect. For example around town idling is not using any gas just diesel. In fact early on the installer said I drove too quietly and that was why I was not using any gas - well that was before they changed the converter! The gas tank is up nice and high and makes no differences to clearance at all. In fact the standard muffler (removed) hung down further than the LPG tank.

[mjforder Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mjforder]

Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

Dock - roughly what was the price to install?

do you have to go back at any stage and get it "re-tuned"?

The injection rate (i believe) is really dependent on load - you drive lightly (or idle) and its off, whereas you go hammer and tongs and it goes to max rate which i think is around 25-30% (any more causes pinging).

The kit that i was/am looking at (D-gas) - mixes LPG proportional to turbo pressure - similar concept - the more boost, the more LPG and less boost (idle or down hill), no LPG. They supposedly govern the max injection rate with an orifice which is simple and effective so there are minimal electronics and tuning req'd. supposedly also - less cost!

So...the avg rate of injection over a large distance (idling, coasting, accelerating etc) - can vary a fair bit. That said, 10% seems a little low but it may be reflective of your style!

:wink:

I also believe only a little of LPG is needed - you dont actually need the full 20-30% so maybe it is a good mix of performance vs economy. You do seem to be saving 1 l/100km overall on your fuel usage and 2 L/100km of diesel - which at the going rate of $1.30/L is a saving of about $47 per tank. That's a nice bonus. Then again, accounting for LPG at approx $0.6/L and the total saving reduces to about $36 or so. Still not bad over a year (maybe close to $300-$400).

cheers

M

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Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

Hi M, your are right about the mix ratios etc. Never had any preignition issues. Actually runs much smoother with gas on than off - even at idle - how does that figure? Two types of systems available as far as I know - simple venturi system (which is what I have) and a gas vapour electronic injection system (apparently more power). The first is simpler but perhaps not as efficient, however it has far fewer moving bits to go wrong. I was the first Prado D4D the installer had done so it took a bit of fiddling to get the right venturi. We tried 3 different styles in the end to get it right. They were really helpful and always ready to address my concerns. Servicing - handbook says 12monthly which means its due now! Don't know what they do. Out of pocket cost to me about $1800. If you do get it done - make sure they use a really good exhaust guy. The first exhaust was crap, $10 muffler etc and had to be replaced - with a quality sports stainless from a high end exhaust specialist. For example the heat shield came adrift in the first couple of weeks - welds gave up. Just bad workmanship. Not the gas installers fault because they didn't do it but something to really be picky about. If you can, insist on a reputable exhaust guy you know. Since then no troubles.

[mjforder Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mjforder]

Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

Great info, thanks.

You say yours is the simple venturi system? Im not aware of that system - only the electronic one and the orifice plate one. That said, venturi and orifice do similar things (porportional metering/flow) - no elec gizmos.

i recently had a new 2.5" exhaust fitted - incl hi-flo diesel cat and straight thru muffler. this has made a B I G difference. Any LPG kit i get now will need to cut/shut this new work (yikes) and be a double-up on cost. Not really an issue as i wanted the exhaust to be done correctly anyway (Toyo - why did you not do it in teh first place.....?)

can you recall whether your kit was the D-Gas or Diesel Gas AUstralia (Lovato) system? the D-Gas is the simple one the other the more complex one. i think there is yet another type of systen "eco-shot" - this is very basic - just a plain-old regulator.

I know the installer that i was going to use was going to put an isolation switch inside the car and a little meter showing how full the LPG tank was. Did you get this? Also, their setup instructions were to install the smallest orifice (minimal LPG) - go out and use the car as i would normally and accurately record diesel and LPG refill rates. Go back and they change the orifice size to suit. They suggested in most instances they use the medium sized one (cant recall what size) - but in their testing prior to hand back - they drive it loaded up hills, coasting etc to check for pinging (over LPG injection). Basically if it pings, they change to a smaller orifice.

regards

M

[DocK Member Find all posts View Profile Close DocK]

Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

I hope they can work around your current exhaust set up. Given their experience with mine you may find that they get it right first time. I know that the installer keeps all the data on each vehicle on a database including LPG settings and computer settings and so on. Here is a photo of the LPG switch indicator - not real accurate gauge though. (Apologies to the moderator if I've got it wrong again and thanks you your help last time.)

[mjforder Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mjforder]

Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

One "claim to fame" of the LPG fumigation people is that the oil appearance (and hence, consistency) is a LOT better.

Have you found this to be the case (ie: takes much longer to go like normal diesel oil "black ")?

[DocK Member Find all posts View Profile Close DocK]

Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

I would have to say Michael that there is no discernible difference. Interestingly, on the dyno some of the exhaust parameters actually went up on the exhaust gas analyser. The explanation form the diesel expert was that the LPG would burn off the oxygen first and actually allow a higher particulate load. That opinion was based on the different burn rates of LPG and diesel and the different ignition temperatures. His view was LPG burns first and whatever oxygen is left over is used to burn the diesel. This is a very different view from the LPG installers who claim the LPG is a catalyst for the diesel - maybe it is by raising the combustion temperature more quickly to ignite the diesel - this is now getting out of my depth! So I had better stop commenting. :roll:

[mjforder Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mjforder]

Re: Diesel/LPG conversion on D4D

Interesting.....some of my queries to the authorising state bodies said the same thing which is why emissions certification has not be acheived to date (apart from lack of suitable equipment) and hence the non compliance to emissions.

I do also recall seeing an article somewhere about a SSang Yong (or whatever thos vehicles are) having the LPG and initial emissions testing showed much higher NOx which makes sense (LPG uses the available O2 first).

Also - one manufacturer makes a big song and dance about how much cleaner/clearer the oil is after having LPG installed. If that isnt the case - then it makes me wonder HM "un-combusted" diesel is remaining and ending up as either exhaust or in the oil. yikes!

Appears the facts/results are different to what the sales people are quoting.

Anywy - thanks for your info!